That isn’t really what people are saying. It’s more that voting cannot bring about socialism, while revolution can, and that therefore treating voting as the primary political outlet for people hampers the organizing efforts needed for revolution.
Revolution: Takr away window dressing like culture, and the crushing majority of earth’s population share our class interest. Most humans want to live in a society focused on taking care of humans, and many revolutions have succeeded or even flourished despite full-spectrum seige from the capitalist bloc.
Reform: reform has been tried for a hundred fifty years and all there is to show for it is two and a half world wars, many capitalist genocides, and an entrenched neo-aristocracy of openly fascist, pedophile death cultists who have kicked off a mass extinction and are driving us towards nuclear apocalypse.
Every communist revolution that survived the 20th century is now either absolutely thriving or at least weathering extreme US seige, and the ones that weathered their seiges already have begun to thrive (see the DPRK). China is currenty the best hope for the survival of any large scale human civilization.
Meanwhile, every capitalist society where people chose reform has backslid or been backsliding into fascism. And at this point, we are out of time to keep trying gentle .methods. Capitalism is the cancer killing the only extraordinary gem of a planet where plants grow and creatures roam, and it’s in part thanks to the history of denial of how bad it is, the continual, suicidal insistence on taking half measures in the face of overwhelming warning that has allowed it to metastasize to such a horrifying degree that our only options now are the risky, painful surgery of revolution or certain death.
Nobody assumes revolution will be smooth and painless, what’s important is that it’s necessary for a better world. We have to work as hard as we can to make sure it works out as smoothly as possible.
I have never said that you aren’t allowed to vote, more that voting is far less important than organizing. You are disparaging organizing in favor of voting on the grounds of voting being better, my question is which issue is voting better for?
I think it was a fairly reasonable conclusion from your response to this comment:
That isn’t really what people are saying. It’s more that voting cannot bring about socialism, while revolution can, and that therefore treating voting as the primary political outlet for people hampers the organizing efforts needed for revolution.
If you can explain your views better, and what you believe socialists believe, then it would be easier for me to know. I’m sorry if I misrepresented your views, but you aren’t doing your views any favors with the endless strawmen.
People laughed, saying a vote for Kamala was pointless, and a vote for genocide, but everyone has suffered under this atrocity of an administration. I don’t know that Kamala would have called Marxists terrorists.
No? It’s the same pick. They both ran on genocide, mass deportations, expanding the police state, not giving a fuck about queer people and all the other stuff.
I replied to you but I had a conversation about AI in my head but will leave it up, sorry.
I still don’t know how someone looked at the trump administration and thought yes please 4 more years. I also understand that looking at biden and thinking 4 more years, no thanks.
The same commentators who through introspection can say that socialist movements across the world need to work with the USA isnt a betrayal of the revolution seemingly cannot apply the same caveated analysis to the shinier of two turds in a two party system sounds like more American exceptionalism. If youre not voting for your “communist party of”, is this just virtue signalling?
The people who say no thanks to both do not consider those two options as unique in any way. Trump and Biden are inevitable and next election will have an even worse choice. The bourgeois state is declining and in its decline it turns towards fascism. Both parties are extensions of the bourgeois state.
By voting all one doesfurther entrench the system. For a long time the arguments for voting for democrats were:
You have to just this onceit’s the most important election of all time
Harm reduction/“lesser evil”
This gives us more time to organise for next election.
The US left can organise better under democrats
As time has passed these arguments have shown themselves to be based on some faulty assumptions. Or conditions have changed to such an extent that the argument no longer stands.
“Just this once”
It has been “the most important election” since, at least, Reagan - With the sole exception of Clinton v. Dole. And in retrospect the hysteria seems much less worrisome. Obama ran against McCain and Romney, respectively. Romney was made out to be a religious fanatic with “binders full of women” who hated poor people “47%”. McCain was a senile warmonger with an insane VP. Both of these were quickly rehabilitated by the establishment, in death McCain was grieved by his political opponents. Dubya has been rehabilitated into the image of a quirky old man. Most democrats claim to look up to Reagan and will quote him. They almost all pursue “reaganomics”, which Reagans VP had referred to as “Voodoo economics” before adopting it himself. Good ol’ trickle down. So it is hard to believe it will be “just this once” and it is hard to believe that there is anything especially egregious about this specific republican, when this is what is always said.
On the other hand we can accept that every single election has been the most important election ever and we need to vote democrat or lose democracy forever. If this is really the case, then one has to wonder if a system where we don’t actually have a vote - It’s democrat or death - is worth perpetuating. One also has to wonder why the democrats, when they are in power, do not dismantle the republican party - If the republicans truly are fascists opposed to democracy. One has to wonder why democrats constantly seek to work with the republicans and speak about “bipartisanship”. The conclusions available all lead to the same place: The democrats are either complicit or completely inefficient. Thus a vote for a democrat is either inconsequential or actively harmful.
Vote for harm reduction/lesser evil
This argument functions in the short term. However every election there’s less and less “lesser” evil. Wether they win or lose democrats make the same conclusion: They must go further to the right. The democrats are also just throwing marginalised groups under the bus (This is ignoring that democrats have been doing all the “evil” stuff on a state-level for much longer than their presidential platform reflects). Every administration since, at least, Clinton has deported more immigrants than the previous administration. Biden surpassed Trump 1[1] They both suck on climate[2], they both commit genocide, they are both expanding a police state, they’re both imperialists, they’re both giving more money to the military.
So while one side might give slightly less, the long term result of this “lesser evil” is one where more harm is produced, than the long term result of one where the system is replaced[3].
What do you think will happen when not evengenocide is too far?
Buying time to create an alternative
By voting for democrats, it is harder for an alternative to seem viable, since the democrats appear to have broad support.
This is an argument built on thinking long term. However when someone suggests an alternative to voting for democrats, they are challenged on the immediate viability of such an action. “There is no alternative right now” or “Will not voting democrats make things better right now?” or “What will voting third party do to oppose [villain of the election] right now?”
If we accept that the argument for voting for democrats is, in part, built on longer term planning, then we must likewise accept the longer timescope for arguments against voting democrat.
Democrats also crack down on left-wing organisers. Democrats also crack down on democratic movements. There are many examples, but most preciently might be Joe Bidens crackdown on anti-israel protesters or his violent crackdown on the remains of “the summer of ´20” once he came into power. He continued Trumps methods of having people disappeared in unmarked vans. It was under democratic governorship and presidency that ferguson riot leaders where assassinated and disappeared. Democrats destroy organisations that are even beneficial to themselves
I don’t know if conditions are “better” for organising. That’s hard to say in my eyes. We have seen far more popular unrest under Trump. People are far more displeased with the regular actions of the US empire under Trump. People have become far more radicalised under Trump. The popular movements are not funnelled into or through the DNC, but instead develop organically. There are other challenges under Trump than under democrats, but “better” or “worse”? Hard to say. Internationally I would consider Trump better, because he is more incompetent.
The same commentators who through introspection can say that socialist movements across the world need to work with the USA isnt a betrayal of the revolution seemingly cannot apply the same caveated analysis to the shinier of two turds in a two party system sounds like more American exceptionalism.
This feels like a bit of a different discussion. The actions, motivations and needs of revolutionary movements engaged in military struggle around the world are different from that of the average US voter (as well as the average US leftist).
You are also conflating “voting for a democrat or a republican” with “agreeing to receive support from the US.” It’s kind of vague, so I don’t really know what you’re talking about here and tbh it is not my area of expertise. I’m going to send a link to this comment to someone else, who might be better at answering, but I’d really appreciate more specificity. Can you say what socialists movement across the world are you thinking of and what socialist commentators are you talking about?
From what I can think of: I know many people have critiqued the various Kurdish militias for cooperating with the US, the PRCs cooperation with the US during the sino-soviet split is seen by most as a massive black mark on that countrys history.
In general though I’d say that people are more forgiving of foreign movements accepting US aid because the aid helps them further towards their goals, whereas someone voting for the democrats would, at best, do nothing. The way I view it, it would make things worse for the domestic leftist to vote democrat. I can’t speak on local politics.
If you’re not voting for your “communist party of”, is this just virtue signalling?
Some will protest that Biden did not “deport” more immigrants, he technically “removed” them instead. Technicalities like these are moot in my eyes, they function only to illustrate how democrats run the same child-crusher, they’re just more “polite” about it. The child is crushed wether it is crushed or “pulverized”. ↩︎
Some will protest that Biden passed the Green New Deal or that he signed the Paris Agreement. The Paris Agreement is a pointless treaty and he did nothing to approach its’ goals. The “Green New Deal”, while allocating some resources to renewable energy, was in practicality nothing. The actual development of the US under Biden was one where greenhouse gas emissions increased and one where he gave out so many fracking contracts that the emissions from the oil in those alone will be enough to push us up to 3.5C warming. It does not matter that you are kissing my booboo, if you’re still stabbing me. The climate is not something that can be half-measured, it is an apocalypse and it is either-or. It needs IMMEDIATE and DRASTIC action, something neither party is willing to take. Therefore the faster neither party is in power, the better. ↩︎
Here is an admitted assumption. I assume the system is easier to replace if it is less entrenched. This seems obvious to me, but others have wanted to discuss this a bunch. It’s a discussion in itself. ↩︎
There’s no point having a discussion with people like me that are intractable when it comes to the technology and are acutely aware of the USA capitalist ruling class the atrocities they commit and enable with people that are unable an unwilling to understand what a model is, and are approaching computer science like a luddite.
The USA capitalists are having you lick their boots when you think that “AI” = ChatGPT. You’re not ‘chatting’ with anything. You, me, and many others, are constantly falling for their marketing shit all the time.
If you can differentiate between a stack of PS3s that made a ‘super computer’ to try to predict what the weather will be tomorrow and the USA building a datacenter, poisoning your water, denying you electricity, stealing your capital, surveiling you, and influencing your decisions, then we can definitely sit together and use our brains to dismantle the infrastructure of oppression. Your enemy is not ‘conversation simulators’, its capitalism.
That isn’t really what people are saying. It’s more that voting cannot bring about socialism, while revolution can, and that therefore treating voting as the primary political outlet for people hampers the organizing efforts needed for revolution.
I don’t know why anyone assumes that revolution will get them what they want. There are so many more ways for things to go wrong than right.
Okay, let’s look at the results to far:
Revolution: Takr away window dressing like culture, and the crushing majority of earth’s population share our class interest. Most humans want to live in a society focused on taking care of humans, and many revolutions have succeeded or even flourished despite full-spectrum seige from the capitalist bloc.
Reform: reform has been tried for a hundred fifty years and all there is to show for it is two and a half world wars, many capitalist genocides, and an entrenched neo-aristocracy of openly fascist, pedophile death cultists who have kicked off a mass extinction and are driving us towards nuclear apocalypse.
Every communist revolution that survived the 20th century is now either absolutely thriving or at least weathering extreme US seige, and the ones that weathered their seiges already have begun to thrive (see the DPRK). China is currenty the best hope for the survival of any large scale human civilization.
Meanwhile, every capitalist society where people chose reform has backslid or been backsliding into fascism. And at this point, we are out of time to keep trying gentle .methods. Capitalism is the cancer killing the only extraordinary gem of a planet where plants grow and creatures roam, and it’s in part thanks to the history of denial of how bad it is, the continual, suicidal insistence on taking half measures in the face of overwhelming warning that has allowed it to metastasize to such a horrifying degree that our only options now are the risky, painful surgery of revolution or certain death.
Nobody assumes revolution will be smooth and painless, what’s important is that it’s necessary for a better world. We have to work as hard as we can to make sure it works out as smoothly as possible.
What are some examples of it going right?
USSR, PRC, DPRK, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, GDR, Yugoslavia, etc.
The USSR, Cuba, DPRK, China, Vietnam as some examples.
We’ve had this argument before and you haven’t convinced me this is true, especially with more immediate political concerns.
I’ve also talked with people who literally are against voting so your statement does not speak for everyone.
What “more immediate political concerns” are not fought better on the ground?
Why only fight on one front when you could fight on all fronts? You can vote and do other things, you know.
By voting for genociders you’re not fighting, you’re not even rolling over, you’re helping them.
I have never said that you aren’t allowed to vote, more that voting is far less important than organizing. You are disparaging organizing in favor of voting on the grounds of voting being better, my question is which issue is voting better for?
I have never, once, at all, ever held that position, nor have I said such a thing. I have always been a proponent of organizing and voting.
Don’t you dare put those words in my mouth.
Can you please explain what these “more immediate political concerns” are that voting is more important for than organizing?
I think I’d rather have an apology first if I’m going to do you any favors. You just spat out a lie about me and you’re going to brush it off?
I think it was a fairly reasonable conclusion from your response to this comment:
If you can explain your views better, and what you believe socialists believe, then it would be easier for me to know. I’m sorry if I misrepresented your views, but you aren’t doing your views any favors with the endless strawmen.
People laughed, saying a vote for Kamala was pointless, and a vote for genocide, but everyone has suffered under this atrocity of an administration. I don’t know that Kamala would have called Marxists terrorists.
Just like everyone suffered under the previous one.
Her administration used “left wing ideals” as a signifier to find domestic terroists.
I stand corrected, Trump’s administration is definitely a better pick than a potential Kamala administration.
No? It’s the same pick. They both ran on genocide, mass deportations, expanding the police state, not giving a fuck about queer people and all the other stuff.
I replied to you but I had a conversation about AI in my head but will leave it up, sorry.
I still don’t know how someone looked at the trump administration and thought yes please 4 more years. I also understand that looking at biden and thinking 4 more years, no thanks.
The same commentators who through introspection can say that socialist movements across the world need to work with the USA isnt a betrayal of the revolution seemingly cannot apply the same caveated analysis to the shinier of two turds in a two party system sounds like more American exceptionalism. If youre not voting for your “communist party of”, is this just virtue signalling?
deleted by creator
The people who say no thanks to both do not consider those two options as unique in any way. Trump and Biden are inevitable and next election will have an even worse choice. The bourgeois state is declining and in its decline it turns towards fascism. Both parties are extensions of the bourgeois state.
By voting all one doesfurther entrench the system. For a long time the arguments for voting for democrats were:
As time has passed these arguments have shown themselves to be based on some faulty assumptions. Or conditions have changed to such an extent that the argument no longer stands.
This argument functions in the short term. However every election there’s less and less “lesser” evil. Wether they win or lose democrats make the same conclusion: They must go further to the right. The democrats are also just throwing marginalised groups under the bus (This is ignoring that democrats have been doing all the “evil” stuff on a state-level for much longer than their presidential platform reflects). Every administration since, at least, Clinton has deported more immigrants than the previous administration. Biden surpassed Trump 1 [1] They both suck on climate[2], they both commit genocide, they are both expanding a police state, they’re both imperialists, they’re both giving more money to the military.
So while one side might give slightly less, the long term result of this “lesser evil” is one where more harm is produced, than the long term result of one where the system is replaced[3].
What do you think will happen when not even genocide is too far?
If we accept that the argument for voting for democrats is, in part, built on longer term planning, then we must likewise accept the longer timescope for arguments against voting democrat.
I don’t know if conditions are “better” for organising. That’s hard to say in my eyes. We have seen far more popular unrest under Trump. People are far more displeased with the regular actions of the US empire under Trump. People have become far more radicalised under Trump. The popular movements are not funnelled into or through the DNC, but instead develop organically. There are other challenges under Trump than under democrats, but “better” or “worse”? Hard to say. Internationally I would consider Trump better, because he is more incompetent.
This feels like a bit of a different discussion. The actions, motivations and needs of revolutionary movements engaged in military struggle around the world are different from that of the average US voter (as well as the average US leftist).
You are also conflating “voting for a democrat or a republican” with “agreeing to receive support from the US.” It’s kind of vague, so I don’t really know what you’re talking about here and tbh it is not my area of expertise. I’m going to send a link to this comment to someone else, who might be better at answering, but I’d really appreciate more specificity. Can you say what socialists movement across the world are you thinking of and what socialist commentators are you talking about?
From what I can think of: I know many people have critiqued the various Kurdish militias for cooperating with the US, the PRCs cooperation with the US during the sino-soviet split is seen by most as a massive black mark on that countrys history.
In general though I’d say that people are more forgiving of foreign movements accepting US aid because the aid helps them further towards their goals, whereas someone voting for the democrats would, at best, do nothing. The way I view it, it would make things worse for the domestic leftist to vote democrat. I can’t speak on local politics.
I am voting third party. Here is a comment I wrote about leftist not voting or voting third party that whole thread has many illustrativt responses.
Here is another comment from the post, detailing my position
Here is my comment from another post
I would also recommend reading cowbees response in that comment thread.
Some will protest that Biden did not “deport” more immigrants, he technically “removed” them instead. Technicalities like these are moot in my eyes, they function only to illustrate how democrats run the same child-crusher, they’re just more “polite” about it. The child is crushed wether it is crushed or “pulverized”. ↩︎
Some will protest that Biden passed the Green New Deal or that he signed the Paris Agreement. The Paris Agreement is a pointless treaty and he did nothing to approach its’ goals. The “Green New Deal”, while allocating some resources to renewable energy, was in practicality nothing. The actual development of the US under Biden was one where greenhouse gas emissions increased and one where he gave out so many fracking contracts that the emissions from the oil in those alone will be enough to push us up to 3.5C warming. It does not matter that you are kissing my booboo, if you’re still stabbing me. The climate is not something that can be half-measured, it is an apocalypse and it is either-or. It needs IMMEDIATE and DRASTIC action, something neither party is willing to take. Therefore the faster neither party is in power, the better. ↩︎
Here is an admitted assumption. I assume the system is easier to replace if it is less entrenched. This seems obvious to me, but others have wanted to discuss this a bunch. It’s a discussion in itself. ↩︎
There’s no point having a discussion with people like me that are intractable when it comes to the technology and are acutely aware of the USA capitalist ruling class the atrocities they commit and enable with people that are unable an unwilling to understand what a model is, and are approaching computer science like a luddite.
The USA capitalists are having you lick their boots when you think that “AI” = ChatGPT. You’re not ‘chatting’ with anything. You, me, and many others, are constantly falling for their marketing shit all the time.
If you can differentiate between a stack of PS3s that made a ‘super computer’ to try to predict what the weather will be tomorrow and the USA building a datacenter, poisoning your water, denying you electricity, stealing your capital, surveiling you, and influencing your decisions, then we can definitely sit together and use our brains to dismantle the infrastructure of oppression. Your enemy is not ‘conversation simulators’, its capitalism.
I think you replied to the wrong person? Otherwise this is the strangest non sequitor I’ve experienced yet
You’re right. I did the stupid.
I was so confused. Where was the reply supposed to go?
The DNC are complicit in the present state repression against left-wing groups, and the genocide in Palestine has continued.
You’re absolutely not wrong.