This comment sat weirdly with me for a minute. I am not saying you are incorrect. I just think there is some conceptual friction.
I think the issue is inserting “dating” in the path of “sexual attraction,” and not just with your comment. Dating and sex are tied together in a way that rubs me the wrong way because it gatekeeps “sex” behind “relationship” in a way that isn’t equally distributed, culturally. It doesn’t freely offer the “one-night stand” to all genders. And I don’t think you can cleanly say “all men are happy with one-night stands, and all women are against one-night stands.”
You don’t need to know what someone’s favorite movie is to think they’re hot. And you don’t need to know whether they have any siblings to have sex with them. However, there does seem to be some expectation that men won’t provide the necessary intimacy for good sex unless they’re committed in a relationship. And it also assumes women are already primed and ready throw everything, emotionally, into a relationship at the drop of the pants.
The only things you need to have (good) sex with someone is: physical compatibility, so the bits interact in ways that feels good for all participants; and social compatibility, insofar as being able to smoothly communicate. All participants need to be able to view the other people as active contributors, to ask and accede to their boundaries and desires while also properly expressing their own.
I think the assumption/fear of “objectification” is valid. I’m aware you are a woman sharing a woman’s perspective of “courtship,” and I don’t want to appear to or actually dismiss you out of hand. But I wonder how much of the reticence toward sexual openness is some residual patriarchal fear of being seen as “libertine.”
This is a TL;DR that just came to me: “viewing someone as sexual is only objectification if the assumption is the person is being used for sex instead of having sex with them.”
You make some really good points that are really good in conjunction with, but don’t fully dispute my point.
I like that you point out that sexual attraction and a dating connection are different though not mutually exclusive. I also like that you brought up female sexual liberation and the assumption that most women don’t want one night stands (they very often do!).
I guess I’ll clarify my initial point. I think a lot of men grow up thinking women are very different from them, so they add all this extra pressure on themselves specifically on interactions with women, and women can generally tell. I guess what I’m truly trying to say here is that putting women you’ve never met on a pedestal (eg. She’s so pretty, I have to tell her how beautiful I think she looks or use the perfect pickup line so this beautiful woman will go on a date with me) is just another form of objectification.
To give personal anecdotal context just so you can fully grasp the feeling im frustrated with: I’m weird. I’m fairly attractive and I do get approached, but i am fucking weird. I do not want a man who does not know me to approach me telling me how beautiful he thinks I am, expecting to get my number, because I know damn well that there’s a high chance that if I give it to him, he will quickly realize how fucking weird I am and ghost me.
I don’t mind if somebody says “hey I really like your band shirt/your shoes/your hat, etc.” – or my jacket with my patches on (always a great convo starter) – always love when somebody likes a band i also like! But this means its an open conversation with no assumptions being made.
Basically, have a full conversation with me before you ask for my number, then we can see where this could go. I intentionally show my weird very quickly in conversation so people know what they are getting into.
So yeah, I don’t think you’re wrong, but I do think potential dating/sex/friendships can be approached all the same, unassuming way. People are people, and I don’t wanna give my number to somebody I’ve never spoken to because he thinks I’m pretty. Please give me a better reason to continue interacting basically.
Basically, have a full conversation with me before you ask for my number, then we can see where this could go.
This, I fully agree with. I wasn’t seeing the situation where someone sees you and says “give me your phone number” because that seems insane to me. Yeah, some positive conversation should happen before people go around demanding semi-permanent means of contact. Beyond niceties, that’s just unsafe with the unfortunate likelihood of some psycho digging into your socials.
Right?! It is absolutely insane, but so many guys will do that. There are so many things guys do that other guys don’t believe because they’re fuckin insane things to do lol
Yeah, a lot of people have incomprehensible, arcane rules to dating and attraction that you’ll never suss out unless you are who they’re trying to attract.
This is totally true too. Each person is an individual and there is no advice that will work to get everyone’s attention. Sometimes people just don’t want to be approached, even if you do everything “right”.
It is absolutely insane, but so many guys will do that.
There’s a whole bunch of literally insane things guys will do thinking it’s going to get them laid. I don’t know where they learn it from that this works given how often they seem to get told to piss off.
She’s so pretty, I have to tell her how beautiful I think she looks or use the perfect pickup line so this beautiful woman will go on a date with me
Is that not idolization more then objectification? Certainly, for some guys as with everything, it’s objectification but I cannot believe that a majority of men see the woman in that situation as a vagina and nothing else.
But like, you idolize human beings. Not objects. Alternatively you could say that you idol worship with gods and goddess. Neither of which seem negative.
An idol can also be an image or object of worship. The golden calf was built as an object of worship because moses took too long talking to god. The isrealites demanded a god be made for them, thus the cow, and it was a hollow substitute.
I’m not taking sides in this but the calf was very much just an object made to be worshipped because everyone got super impatient.
I don’t think you can cleanly say “all men are happy with one-night stands, and all women are against one-night stands.”
Any statement that begins with “all <insert group>” is 99.44% likely to be incorrect. That being said, men are far more prone to be interested in one-night stands than women are. Are women sometimes interested in one-night stands? FUCK yes! I’d suspect every woman on Earth has had a moment where they at least very seriously entertained (if not actually took) the possibility of a one-night or a short-term fuck-fest. (I spent two weeks on a holiday shacked up with a guy I met on the plane there. Never saw nor heard from him again and I’m fine with that.) But I’d also suspect a whole lot more men entertain this possibility a whole lot more frequently. This has to do with the fact that men don’t bear the biological costs of childbirth; the risk analysis is entirely different.
So on the whole I think it’s perfectly safe to assume that men are far more interested in (and far more likely to participate in) casual sex than women. Just #NotAllMen.
This comment sat weirdly with me for a minute. I am not saying you are incorrect. I just think there is some conceptual friction.
I think the issue is inserting “dating” in the path of “sexual attraction,” and not just with your comment. Dating and sex are tied together in a way that rubs me the wrong way because it gatekeeps “sex” behind “relationship” in a way that isn’t equally distributed, culturally. It doesn’t freely offer the “one-night stand” to all genders. And I don’t think you can cleanly say “all men are happy with one-night stands, and all women are against one-night stands.”
You don’t need to know what someone’s favorite movie is to think they’re hot. And you don’t need to know whether they have any siblings to have sex with them. However, there does seem to be some expectation that men won’t provide the necessary intimacy for good sex unless they’re committed in a relationship. And it also assumes women are already primed and ready throw everything, emotionally, into a relationship at the drop of the pants.
The only things you need to have (good) sex with someone is: physical compatibility, so the bits interact in ways that feels good for all participants; and social compatibility, insofar as being able to smoothly communicate. All participants need to be able to view the other people as active contributors, to ask and accede to their boundaries and desires while also properly expressing their own.
I think the assumption/fear of “objectification” is valid. I’m aware you are a woman sharing a woman’s perspective of “courtship,” and I don’t want to appear to or actually dismiss you out of hand. But I wonder how much of the reticence toward sexual openness is some residual patriarchal fear of being seen as “libertine.”
This is a TL;DR that just came to me: “viewing someone as sexual is only objectification if the assumption is the person is being used for sex instead of having sex with them.”
You make some really good points that are really good in conjunction with, but don’t fully dispute my point.
I like that you point out that sexual attraction and a dating connection are different though not mutually exclusive. I also like that you brought up female sexual liberation and the assumption that most women don’t want one night stands (they very often do!).
I guess I’ll clarify my initial point. I think a lot of men grow up thinking women are very different from them, so they add all this extra pressure on themselves specifically on interactions with women, and women can generally tell. I guess what I’m truly trying to say here is that putting women you’ve never met on a pedestal (eg. She’s so pretty, I have to tell her how beautiful I think she looks or use the perfect pickup line so this beautiful woman will go on a date with me) is just another form of objectification.
To give personal anecdotal context just so you can fully grasp the feeling im frustrated with: I’m weird. I’m fairly attractive and I do get approached, but i am fucking weird. I do not want a man who does not know me to approach me telling me how beautiful he thinks I am, expecting to get my number, because I know damn well that there’s a high chance that if I give it to him, he will quickly realize how fucking weird I am and ghost me.
I don’t mind if somebody says “hey I really like your band shirt/your shoes/your hat, etc.” – or my jacket with my patches on (always a great convo starter) – always love when somebody likes a band i also like! But this means its an open conversation with no assumptions being made.
Basically, have a full conversation with me before you ask for my number, then we can see where this could go. I intentionally show my weird very quickly in conversation so people know what they are getting into.
So yeah, I don’t think you’re wrong, but I do think potential dating/sex/friendships can be approached all the same, unassuming way. People are people, and I don’t wanna give my number to somebody I’ve never spoken to because he thinks I’m pretty. Please give me a better reason to continue interacting basically.
This, I fully agree with. I wasn’t seeing the situation where someone sees you and says “give me your phone number” because that seems insane to me. Yeah, some positive conversation should happen before people go around demanding semi-permanent means of contact. Beyond niceties, that’s just unsafe with the unfortunate likelihood of some psycho digging into your socials.
Right?! It is absolutely insane, but so many guys will do that. There are so many things guys do that other guys don’t believe because they’re fuckin insane things to do lol
Yeah, a lot of people have incomprehensible, arcane rules to dating and attraction that you’ll never suss out unless you are who they’re trying to attract.
This is totally true too. Each person is an individual and there is no advice that will work to get everyone’s attention. Sometimes people just don’t want to be approached, even if you do everything “right”.
There’s a whole bunch of literally insane things guys will do thinking it’s going to get them laid. I don’t know where they learn it from that this works given how often they seem to get told to piss off.
Is that not idolization more then objectification? Certainly, for some guys as with everything, it’s objectification but I cannot believe that a majority of men see the woman in that situation as a vagina and nothing else.
Is idolization not another form of putting women on a pedestal?
The exact context that is provided in the comment you replied to?
But like, you idolize human beings. Not objects. Alternatively you could say that you idol worship with gods and goddess. Neither of which seem negative.
Idols are by definition inanimate objects used to represent something else.
You’ve never heard of the golden calf? Objects can be idolized.
The idol of a cow god? Yes. That’s what I described. Idol worship of gods.
An idol can also be an image or object of worship. The golden calf was built as an object of worship because moses took too long talking to god. The isrealites demanded a god be made for them, thus the cow, and it was a hollow substitute.
I’m not taking sides in this but the calf was very much just an object made to be worshipped because everyone got super impatient.
Not religious, just raised catholic.
It was also very much a god that was worshiped before they made the statue.
There is a difference between idolization and idolitry.
Any statement that begins with “all <insert group>” is 99.44% likely to be incorrect. That being said, men are far more prone to be interested in one-night stands than women are. Are women sometimes interested in one-night stands? FUCK yes! I’d suspect every woman on Earth has had a moment where they at least very seriously entertained (if not actually took) the possibility of a one-night or a short-term fuck-fest. (I spent two weeks on a holiday shacked up with a guy I met on the plane there. Never saw nor heard from him again and I’m fine with that.) But I’d also suspect a whole lot more men entertain this possibility a whole lot more frequently. This has to do with the fact that men don’t bear the biological costs of childbirth; the risk analysis is entirely different.
So on the whole I think it’s perfectly safe to assume that men are far more interested in (and far more likely to participate in) casual sex than women. Just #NotAllMen.