Thank you. Education can save lives, especially in this world where we are relentlessly bombarded with disinformation. To many people, “communism” is a label that means something different from what was intended. “Some communists did some racist things,” sure. “Communism is racist,” no.
Capitalism is not inherently racist either, but it is easier to exploit. The people with power use their power to help themselves get even more power. In our timeline, it’s mostly white dudes.
A response I often hear is “look how many people died under communism.” I’m looking. Now let’s count deaths under capitalism. Now let’s look at the specific causes, etc. Remove the labels and trace the underlying wires. Debug humanity so we can make a better future for all. Or perhaps more aptly as climate change accelerates, defuse the bomb before we all fucking die.
I would disagree with you here. Capitalism is not an abstract ideal. Neither is racism. They are both specific historical processes. Historians generally seat the origins of capitalism in the invention of common stock in 1602 by the Dutch East India Company. Historians also seat the origins of the racism to the mid-1400s in Portugal when Prince Henry sponsored mass slave catching in Africa and commissioned the author Gomes Eanes de Zurara to write a positive account of his exploits. This writing, “The Chronicle of the Discovery and Conquest of Guinea”, established a moral basis for violent human trafficking, subjugation, and mass theft.
By the time the Dutch East India Company invented common stock, what investors were investing in for the initial IPO was the massive expansion of a private militarized merchant company that had racialized human trafficking and slavery as a core pillar of the company’s operations and profit.
There was literally never a time in human history that capitalism existed separately from racism. Capitalism was built on the foundations of racism and integrated all aspects of racism into its mechanics.
In an academic setting of pure abstract theory you could potentially invent a theoretical form of capitalism that isn’t racist, which could be useful for thought experiments or maybe some creative fiction. But Capitalism as you and I know it has always been fundamentally enmeshed with racism as we know it.
Right, which is why I said “in our timeline.” The concept of capitalism is not inherently racist, but historically racism has always been part of it. Kind of like how the fact that communist countries have failed historically does not mean that communism itself is always doomed to fail.
Only one communist country “failed” and that was the USSR. Every other communist revolution is still in existence. And even when we say the USSR “failed” we mean that it succeeded in so many ways, including successfully overthrowing an empire, poverty alleviation, famine alleviation, military victory over the Third Reich, educational advancement, medical advancement, space exploration advancement, and on and on.
Right, which is why I said “in our timeline.” The concept of capitalism is not inherently racist, but historically racism has always been part of it.
What you said was “In our timeline, it’s mostly white dudes.” What I said was that the foundation of capitalism rested on violent human trafficking, violent slavery, and violent extraction. While we could potentially develop a concept of capitalism that isn’t racist, I don’t know that we’ve proven that. It’s obviously possible to talk about capitalism and ignore racism, just like it’s possible to talk about the US and ignore indigenous genocide, but I don’t think we can develop a concept of the US that doesn’t inherently have indigenous genocide in it.
Capitalism required substantial accumulation of extreme wealth, which seems like it may have only been possible through extreme exploitation and it’s unclear whether such extreme exploitation is possible without something like racism to divide the world’s people into those that can be exploited without limit and those that reap the benefits.
I don’t think we can develop a concept of the US that doesn’t inherently have indigenous genocide in it.
The US is a physical place. Capitalism is not a physical thing.
it’s unclear whether such extreme exploitation is possible without something like racism to divide the world’s people into those that can be exploited without limit and those that reap the benefits.
Capitalism is a historical process that emerged from specific physical conditions on the planet we call earth and is the physical and logical relationship between real physical things in real physical human society.
Again, academically we can try to abstract it into a concept and then mentally divorce it from its history, but physically speaking it’s a physical phenomenon, just as history is a physical phenomenon.
That’s why I said it’s more like being able to talk about the USA while ignoring genocide but can’t truly conceptualize a USA without genocide. We can talk about capitalism as though it’s abstract but what we’re really doing is ignoring history when we do that. I don’t think it’s possible to conceive of capitalism without racism, I think it’s only possible to talk about capitalism without racism.
I don’t think it’s possible to conceive of capitalism without racism, I think it’s only possible to talk about capitalism without racism.
The reason I’m pushing back so much on this is that people do the exact same thing with communism. It has a history that includes violence and suffering, so they assume it inherently must lead to violence and suffering. That is not the case. Nor is it the case that capitalism must lead to racism, or that it must utilize racism, even though I agree that’s how it has happened in our world. We can acknowledge our shitty history while also leaving room to imagine a better future.
Capital is a physical thing. The people who engage in capitalism, the products bought and sold, typically are physical things. Capitalism itself is not.
Thank you. Education can save lives, especially in this world where we are relentlessly bombarded with disinformation. To many people, “communism” is a label that means something different from what was intended. “Some communists did some racist things,” sure. “Communism is racist,” no.
Capitalism is not inherently racist either, but it is easier to exploit. The people with power use their power to help themselves get even more power. In our timeline, it’s mostly white dudes.
A response I often hear is “look how many people died under communism.” I’m looking. Now let’s count deaths under capitalism. Now let’s look at the specific causes, etc. Remove the labels and trace the underlying wires. Debug humanity so we can make a better future for all. Or perhaps more aptly as climate change accelerates, defuse the bomb before we all fucking die.
I would disagree with you here. Capitalism is not an abstract ideal. Neither is racism. They are both specific historical processes. Historians generally seat the origins of capitalism in the invention of common stock in 1602 by the Dutch East India Company. Historians also seat the origins of the racism to the mid-1400s in Portugal when Prince Henry sponsored mass slave catching in Africa and commissioned the author Gomes Eanes de Zurara to write a positive account of his exploits. This writing, “The Chronicle of the Discovery and Conquest of Guinea”, established a moral basis for violent human trafficking, subjugation, and mass theft.
By the time the Dutch East India Company invented common stock, what investors were investing in for the initial IPO was the massive expansion of a private militarized merchant company that had racialized human trafficking and slavery as a core pillar of the company’s operations and profit.
There was literally never a time in human history that capitalism existed separately from racism. Capitalism was built on the foundations of racism and integrated all aspects of racism into its mechanics.
In an academic setting of pure abstract theory you could potentially invent a theoretical form of capitalism that isn’t racist, which could be useful for thought experiments or maybe some creative fiction. But Capitalism as you and I know it has always been fundamentally enmeshed with racism as we know it.
Right, which is why I said “in our timeline.” The concept of capitalism is not inherently racist, but historically racism has always been part of it. Kind of like how the fact that communist countries have failed historically does not mean that communism itself is always doomed to fail.
Only one communist country “failed” and that was the USSR. Every other communist revolution is still in existence. And even when we say the USSR “failed” we mean that it succeeded in so many ways, including successfully overthrowing an empire, poverty alleviation, famine alleviation, military victory over the Third Reich, educational advancement, medical advancement, space exploration advancement, and on and on.
What you said was “In our timeline, it’s mostly white dudes.” What I said was that the foundation of capitalism rested on violent human trafficking, violent slavery, and violent extraction. While we could potentially develop a concept of capitalism that isn’t racist, I don’t know that we’ve proven that. It’s obviously possible to talk about capitalism and ignore racism, just like it’s possible to talk about the US and ignore indigenous genocide, but I don’t think we can develop a concept of the US that doesn’t inherently have indigenous genocide in it.
Capitalism required substantial accumulation of extreme wealth, which seems like it may have only been possible through extreme exploitation and it’s unclear whether such extreme exploitation is possible without something like racism to divide the world’s people into those that can be exploited without limit and those that reap the benefits.
The US is a physical place. Capitalism is not a physical thing.
…in our timeline.
Either way, thank you for the history lessons.
On this we disagree.
It literally is not a physical thing.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism
The fuck is wrong with you?Define “capitalism,”, please.(ETA strikethrough to unwarranted rudeness. Sorry for losing my patience.)
Capitalism is a historical process that emerged from specific physical conditions on the planet we call earth and is the physical and logical relationship between real physical things in real physical human society.
Again, academically we can try to abstract it into a concept and then mentally divorce it from its history, but physically speaking it’s a physical phenomenon, just as history is a physical phenomenon.
That’s why I said it’s more like being able to talk about the USA while ignoring genocide but can’t truly conceptualize a USA without genocide. We can talk about capitalism as though it’s abstract but what we’re really doing is ignoring history when we do that. I don’t think it’s possible to conceive of capitalism without racism, I think it’s only possible to talk about capitalism without racism.
The reason I’m pushing back so much on this is that people do the exact same thing with communism. It has a history that includes violence and suffering, so they assume it inherently must lead to violence and suffering. That is not the case. Nor is it the case that capitalism must lead to racism, or that it must utilize racism, even though I agree that’s how it has happened in our world. We can acknowledge our shitty history while also leaving room to imagine a better future.
Capital is a physical thing. The people who engage in capitalism, the products bought and sold, typically are physical things. Capitalism itself is not.