“People as powerful as Satan are I. Short supply and aren’t interested “
But Satan is interested? Satan is the only powerful entity that cares what happens around the world? If he cars there is someone on the other side. Wayne has the resources to get in touch with them.
“Asked and answered” so you’re sitting with there is not a single better place to put the asylum or it would least be equally useless at another location? Then why bother with criminals at all? Just give up. The whole city is doomed by you’re stand point. Nuke it and move on.
“ not to get to acab”
Let’s get acab. All cops are bastards. After George Floyd we pushed for change and many cities did begin to make some small changes. It’s slow but it’s working. Know what isn’t working at all for Gotham? Batman. He’s clearly not changing anything at all. What improves things is societal changes not a guy with a cape. He could use his money to push for those changes instead of building a dangerous car.
“Who was prosecuted other than two people” that’s correct, the ring leaders and a damn prince
Of England. The two people running the operation are removed from power so was a very very powerful prince. Now we are slowly going after the goons below them. That’s how that works. You are acting like “we didn’t do anything except for the things we did!” It’s silly.
“What stops the magic cops from being corrupted “ what stops Batman from being corrupt? People don’t default to evil, most people want to be good guys.
As for thanos I’m pretty sure thanos was taken down by the avengers. A government organization. Wasn’t war machine involved too? The governments iron man who comes of as more trustworthy than stark. I mean it was a major point in the story that the avengers broke up because they didn’t want to work for the government then they had to come back and work together anyway to defeat thanos. A government agency not just Tony Stark doing an iron man. I
What government official would I trust? Who do you trust for anything? Who do you trust with nuclear submarines? Some random rich dude or the government? I don’t like trump having the nuclear missle codes but I sure as hell don’t want Elon musk to have control. At least theoretically trump works for the people, the rich random dude has no obligation besides themselves.
“If trump had a laser” he does, he has all that military tech stuff. Right now.
You keep circling back to “it’s a comic” yes. I’m not trying to write a more engaging story just pointing out the obvious that Bruce Wayne is doing the wrong thing. If you’re argument is “it’s a comic don’t worry about it” that’s fine. But you’re argument is “Batman is doing the right thing” he is not.
“When you say Batman isn’t effective “
Okay let’s try it this way. HOW is Batman effective? The portal to hell is still open, people keep escaping prisons, the police are still corrupt, organized crime is still prevalent, the city is still in chaos. What exactly has Batman accomplished other than having fun in his fancy suit and car beating up random thugs who are weaker than him. It’s ego not heroic. He needs to be using his money for good not to buy cool toys to beat people up. It’s not working. Vigilante justice NEVER works. It only encourages more violence.
"(Not explicitly Satan in Batman but up there on the power scale) "
you’re sitting with there is not a single better place to put the asylum or it would least be equally useless at another location?
“Because inevitably they’ll land on a Indian burial ground or chemical dump or NIMBY’s will oppose it, depending on how real we get.”
Let’s get acab. All cops are bastards. After George Floyd we pushed for change and many cities did begin to make some small changes. It’s slow but it’s working. Know what isn’t working at all for Gotham? Batman. He’s clearly not changing anything at all.
"When you say “Batman isn’t effective” and I point out that comic books get really boring with no baddies to drive the plot and you just repeat yourself it’s being intentional obtuse. Still not sure what part of my point you’re missing here.
It’s a comic book universe.
No one shoots the Joker in the head and the state doesn’t put him to death because then there’s no more story, and it is 100% what would happen IRL by about the 3rd time he murdered a dozen people in the real world, even in the most liberal anti-death penalty state (In b4 “Well he’d be ruled insane”, hence why I noted him being shot in the head.), same with the majority of Batman’s villains, which would likely make Gotham fairly safe. The extreme edge case of the comic book supervillain is honestly the only time I’m pro death penalty and only because of how silly the comic book logic is."
“Who was prosecuted other than two people” that’s correct, the ring leaders and a damn prince Of England. The two people running the operation are removed from power so was a very very powerful prince. Now we are slowly going after the goons below them. That’s how that works. You are acting like “we didn’t do anything except for the things we did!” It’s silly.
"Closest we got was Prince Andrew, who still hasn’t been charged with anything to my knowledge. And again, nobody for the Panama Papers. "
As for thanos I’m pretty sure thanos was taken down by the avengers. A government organization.
Avengers is formed but not explicitly controlled by S.H.I.E.L.D. in the movies iirc, and decidedly unrelated in the comics. I could just as easily point out the Justice League as well, who is funded by Bruce Wayne, or a host of other big planet eating dudes who were beaten by a wide variety of superhero teams. Guardians of the Galaxy, X-Men, Fantastic Four, list goes on.
“If trump had a laser” he does, he has all that military tech stuff. Right now.
Yeah a nuke takes effort and many people, a super robot suit or a magic ring doesn’t.
You keep circling back to “it’s a comic” yes. I’m not trying to write a more engaging story just pointing out the obvious that Bruce Wayne is doing the wrong thing.
“By your metric every superhero and probably every comic book government agency should give up. Lex Luthor keeps doing Lex Luthor shit so Superman should just focus on carrying oil tankers past the Straight of Hormuz to keep gas prices low. Hulks villains keep coming back he should just make coal into diamonds for industry. All these super geniuses should cure cancer and give us unlimited clean energy instead of fighting Thanos. The list goes on.”
Okay let’s try it this way. HOW is Batman effective? The portal to hell is still open, people keep escaping prisons, the police are still corrupt, organized crime is still prevalent, the city is still in chaos. What exactly has Batman accomplished other than having fun in his fancy suit and car beating up random thugs who are weaker than him.
“When you say “Batman isn’t effective” and I point out that comic books get really boring with no baddies to drive the plot and you just repeat yourself it’s being intentional obtuse. Still not sure what part of my point you’re missing here. It’s a comic book universe.”
To expound: These things don’t get solved because comic book writers don’t want to solve problems permanently because if they don’t they can write more stories about them and make more money. How can one criticize Batman without pointing at that? Any attempt to inject real world logic into the discussion also has to contend with the writers existing.
Vigilante justice NEVER works. It only encourages more violence.
I already pointed out the Luigi thing to someone else.
He wasn’t a billionaire and his actions didn’t cause any change. You can like Luigi for doing what he did but he didn’t accomplish anything.
But in his case he didn’t have any other way to effect change either. Brice Wayne is a billionaire. Luigi is the guy who shot bruces parents.
You are repeating yourself but not answering my questions. Let’s try another way.
The writers of the comic book are god to the people in the universe right? Those god writers keep a constant flow of horrible things to hurt Gotham. Then at best Batman is doing nothing. He beats a bad guy, the writers bring him back. In Batman’s universe his vigalante justice at BEST is meaningless because the writers will just undo it.
Fine. That doesn’t make his actions Nobel or beneficial. It’s an endless loop of suffering that exists entirely because of his charecter.
The writers are writing a story for Bruce Wayne’s life and all of Gotham suffers for it. If he died Gotham would be better off because the writers wouldn’t keep throwing bad guys at him.
So even in comic books are written to be entertaining universe… Batman is the reasons the writers made the villains. No Batman no villains.
You can like Luigi for doing what he did but he didn’t accomplish anything.
Put a fair amount of the fear of god into execs for several months which from what I’ve read in places led to more approvals for care, and tbh if it had gotten some copycats (e.g. the story ‘Radicalized’) I think we’d see universal health care pretty fast.
You are repeating yourself but not answering my questions.
I am answering the same questions with the same complete answers. If you wanna discuss, discuss. If you wanna pull a string on a speak and spell, well I can do that too.
So even in comic books are written to be entertaining universe… Batman is the reasons the writers made the villains. No Batman no villains.
No Superman, no villains. No Spiderman, no villains. No X-men, no villains. Not sure you’re really thinking this one through.
Oh and I don’t know if you saw my edit but I rebutted the “that’s how it’s written” with “well they are writing Gillian’s for Batman to fight. In that universe if there was no Batman there would be no villains. They are written for Batman to fight. Batman is the problem.
Yes! If you are taking the “that’s how it’s written “ route all those super heros are causing the problem lol
I thought it thru.
However with someone like let’s say Spider-Man. Spider-Man is a boy with no money or societal power. No influences. He got superpowers and used those super powers for “good”. Still a vigalant but he’s doesn’t have a lot of options and people aren’t exactly thrilled about Spider-Man doing spiderman shit.
Bruce Wayne is a billionaire with major society changing powers due to his extreme wealth and position. Instead of using his wealth and power to make change… he instead builds a bat cave and fights people with gadgets he buys.
If you found out bill gates put on a mask and cape and was fighting the mafia… physically with his hands…would you consider that a good idea? The best use of his time and money?
Or would you be like “bill, you need to just donate some money to people who actually know what they are doing.
Let’s talk about Oprah for a second. She built a school. It’s a good school. Sure. Hold a few hundred people. Free education. Nice. I’m not mad she built a school. It’s however worth pointing out instead of her personally building a multi million dollar school with chandeliers and 1000 thread count sheets… she could’ve donated that money to a charity that already has experience opening schools. She could’ve built 100 schools instead of 1 super expensive school. It would’ve helped a lot more people.
Is Oprah building a school bad? No. Was it a best avenue for her to get the best result? No. Because Oprah doesn’t know anything about schools. She should’ve left it to professionals.
Is Batman evil? No. Is he doing things properly? Absolutely not. He needs to be in a board room donating money like his parents did. His parents started the Wayne foundation. He built a bat cave.
Yes! If you are taking the “that’s how it’s written “ route all those super heros are causing the problem lol
Congrats on destroying all works of fiction I guess lmao
“If we just get rid of the protagonist then the antagonist won’t exist.” is a fucking goofy take dude c’mon.
If you found out bill gates put on a mask and cape and was fighting the mafia… physically with his hands…would you consider that a good idea? The best use of his time and money?
NGL that’d be fucking dope.
Oprah could’ve built 100 schools instead of 1 super expensive school. It would’ve helped a lot more people.
She also could have built 0 schools. That very much was an option. Feels like you’re looking a gift horse in the mouth. I’d prefer the Carnegie Library strategy as well but shit any library is better then no library.
He needs to be in a board room donating money like his parents did. His parents started the Wayne foundation.
He started the foundation, not them. Even if his parents had started it, he’s still stewarding it and (presumably) funding it and ensuring it accomplishes its mission.
To be fair that was my rebuttals to an argument you had. I don’t think I fully understand that argument. I gathered you were saying “he’s a hero because he’s written to be a hero” in that case the villains only exist to fight him. Which still makes him the problem.
But that’s not my argument really. I belive in the “death of the author” what the author intended is not how I’m required to view it.
So my “then Batman is the cuase of villains” argument is supposed to be silly because I feel “ the author says Batman is the only hope” is also silly.
But maybe I’m just not understanding that argument.
Oh and by the way I know I use quotes around things you didn’t actually say. It’s weird but that’s not me trying to straw man you. That’s me saying “this is what I heard you say” so you can see if I’m missing something important. It can be irritating if you think I’m purposefully misquoting you. That’s not my intent.
Either way o just want to take a second and thank you for the conversation. It’s very interesting even if I don’t fully agree with you. I’m having fun discussing this and you seem pretty intelligent. So thank you for that my friend.
Btw your bill gates answer had me laughing. It would be rad as hell. But it wouldn’t be the best use of his skills. lol but yeah I’d respect bill a lot more if he did fight the mafia lol
As for operah I also agree. More billionaires should do what Oprah did… I’m just saying it’s not the best use. But better than nothing yes.
I think the joke that started all this actually came from the “behind the bastards” episode of Oprah. Robert Evan’s said the quote all this stared with. Funny guy.
Let me try another example. Imagine I was a billionaire. I’m not. let’s say the bump my pay to the billions.
As a billionaire every Saturday I walk to the beach and pick up trash. That’s good! But I could wrote a check for a million dollars and not even notice a dip in my bank account. I could hire hundreds of people to clean the beach. My time would be better spent running the charity that cleans the beach rather than me personally picking up trash.
So you’re argument is “if Luigi had sparked something it would’ve been great” that’s fine. But he didn’t spark anything.
A couple rich guys maybe hired a few more guards. That’s all.
Much like Batman. Vigilante justice doesn’t work. I’ve heard of exactly one example of vigalante justice that was cool. A whole town banded together to kill a really crappy dude who lived there and kept hurting people. Bit notice that wasn’t some random dude doing it. The whole town agreed that did had to go. So they killed him and he was no longer a problem.
That’s the only time I’ve seen it work and it wasn’t a Batman it was a whole town.
In a fictional world where the alternative is someone blowing up the planet, I assure you, it does work, as the planet in said fictional world still exists. It probably also helps that it is also written to work in this fictional world and that collateral damage is limited to non-existent.
In the real world, we don’t see as many people threatening to blow up the planet, and generally the social contract that gives the government a monopoly on force works out pretty well for resolving issues such as dudes being assholes. When the government doesn’t uphold its end of the social contract, then folks gotta take force into their own hands. Hence Ken McElroy (who I linked along with Luigi, btw.) though there are others, like The Secret Six, and Gary Plauché.
In that fictional world the bad guys only exist to fight Batman.
In the real world vigalantee justice doesn’t work. I mentioned the one time and you did link him. McElroy . But again that only worked because it was one guy who needed to be killed. It wouldn’t have worked if it was an organization or society that needed challenging.
I’ll look up your other examples if you want but I can follow that with all the times it just caused cycles of revenge instead of change for good.
Violence breed’s violence. Vigilante justice doesn’t work. Even in Batman. The writers write villains specifically to attack Batman. Because his existence breeds violence in that universe.
“People as powerful as Satan are I. Short supply and aren’t interested “
But Satan is interested? Satan is the only powerful entity that cares what happens around the world? If he cars there is someone on the other side. Wayne has the resources to get in touch with them.
“Asked and answered” so you’re sitting with there is not a single better place to put the asylum or it would least be equally useless at another location? Then why bother with criminals at all? Just give up. The whole city is doomed by you’re stand point. Nuke it and move on.
“ not to get to acab”
Let’s get acab. All cops are bastards. After George Floyd we pushed for change and many cities did begin to make some small changes. It’s slow but it’s working. Know what isn’t working at all for Gotham? Batman. He’s clearly not changing anything at all. What improves things is societal changes not a guy with a cape. He could use his money to push for those changes instead of building a dangerous car.
“Who was prosecuted other than two people” that’s correct, the ring leaders and a damn prince Of England. The two people running the operation are removed from power so was a very very powerful prince. Now we are slowly going after the goons below them. That’s how that works. You are acting like “we didn’t do anything except for the things we did!” It’s silly.
“What stops the magic cops from being corrupted “ what stops Batman from being corrupt? People don’t default to evil, most people want to be good guys.
As for thanos I’m pretty sure thanos was taken down by the avengers. A government organization. Wasn’t war machine involved too? The governments iron man who comes of as more trustworthy than stark. I mean it was a major point in the story that the avengers broke up because they didn’t want to work for the government then they had to come back and work together anyway to defeat thanos. A government agency not just Tony Stark doing an iron man. I
What government official would I trust? Who do you trust for anything? Who do you trust with nuclear submarines? Some random rich dude or the government? I don’t like trump having the nuclear missle codes but I sure as hell don’t want Elon musk to have control. At least theoretically trump works for the people, the rich random dude has no obligation besides themselves.
“If trump had a laser” he does, he has all that military tech stuff. Right now.
You keep circling back to “it’s a comic” yes. I’m not trying to write a more engaging story just pointing out the obvious that Bruce Wayne is doing the wrong thing. If you’re argument is “it’s a comic don’t worry about it” that’s fine. But you’re argument is “Batman is doing the right thing” he is not.
“When you say Batman isn’t effective “
Okay let’s try it this way. HOW is Batman effective? The portal to hell is still open, people keep escaping prisons, the police are still corrupt, organized crime is still prevalent, the city is still in chaos. What exactly has Batman accomplished other than having fun in his fancy suit and car beating up random thugs who are weaker than him. It’s ego not heroic. He needs to be using his money for good not to buy cool toys to beat people up. It’s not working. Vigilante justice NEVER works. It only encourages more violence.
"(Not explicitly Satan in Batman but up there on the power scale) "
“Because inevitably they’ll land on a Indian burial ground or chemical dump or NIMBY’s will oppose it, depending on how real we get.”
"When you say “Batman isn’t effective” and I point out that comic books get really boring with no baddies to drive the plot and you just repeat yourself it’s being intentional obtuse. Still not sure what part of my point you’re missing here.
It’s a comic book universe.
No one shoots the Joker in the head and the state doesn’t put him to death because then there’s no more story, and it is 100% what would happen IRL by about the 3rd time he murdered a dozen people in the real world, even in the most liberal anti-death penalty state (In b4 “Well he’d be ruled insane”, hence why I noted him being shot in the head.), same with the majority of Batman’s villains, which would likely make Gotham fairly safe. The extreme edge case of the comic book supervillain is honestly the only time I’m pro death penalty and only because of how silly the comic book logic is."
"Closest we got was Prince Andrew, who still hasn’t been charged with anything to my knowledge. And again, nobody for the Panama Papers. "
Avengers is formed but not explicitly controlled by S.H.I.E.L.D. in the movies iirc, and decidedly unrelated in the comics. I could just as easily point out the Justice League as well, who is funded by Bruce Wayne, or a host of other big planet eating dudes who were beaten by a wide variety of superhero teams. Guardians of the Galaxy, X-Men, Fantastic Four, list goes on.
Yeah a nuke takes effort and many people, a super robot suit or a magic ring doesn’t.
“By your metric every superhero and probably every comic book government agency should give up. Lex Luthor keeps doing Lex Luthor shit so Superman should just focus on carrying oil tankers past the Straight of Hormuz to keep gas prices low. Hulks villains keep coming back he should just make coal into diamonds for industry. All these super geniuses should cure cancer and give us unlimited clean energy instead of fighting Thanos. The list goes on.”
“When you say “Batman isn’t effective” and I point out that comic books get really boring with no baddies to drive the plot and you just repeat yourself it’s being intentional obtuse. Still not sure what part of my point you’re missing here. It’s a comic book universe.”
To expound: These things don’t get solved because comic book writers don’t want to solve problems permanently because if they don’t they can write more stories about them and make more money. How can one criticize Batman without pointing at that? Any attempt to inject real world logic into the discussion also has to contend with the writers existing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Mangione
I already pointed out the Luigi thing to someone else.
He wasn’t a billionaire and his actions didn’t cause any change. You can like Luigi for doing what he did but he didn’t accomplish anything.
But in his case he didn’t have any other way to effect change either. Brice Wayne is a billionaire. Luigi is the guy who shot bruces parents.
You are repeating yourself but not answering my questions. Let’s try another way.
The writers of the comic book are god to the people in the universe right? Those god writers keep a constant flow of horrible things to hurt Gotham. Then at best Batman is doing nothing. He beats a bad guy, the writers bring him back. In Batman’s universe his vigalante justice at BEST is meaningless because the writers will just undo it.
Fine. That doesn’t make his actions Nobel or beneficial. It’s an endless loop of suffering that exists entirely because of his charecter.
The writers are writing a story for Bruce Wayne’s life and all of Gotham suffers for it. If he died Gotham would be better off because the writers wouldn’t keep throwing bad guys at him.
So even in comic books are written to be entertaining universe… Batman is the reasons the writers made the villains. No Batman no villains.
Put a fair amount of the fear of god into execs for several months which from what I’ve read in places led to more approvals for care, and tbh if it had gotten some copycats (e.g. the story ‘Radicalized’) I think we’d see universal health care pretty fast.
I am answering the same questions with the same complete answers. If you wanna discuss, discuss. If you wanna pull a string on a speak and spell, well I can do that too.
No Superman, no villains. No Spiderman, no villains. No X-men, no villains. Not sure you’re really thinking this one through.
Oh and I don’t know if you saw my edit but I rebutted the “that’s how it’s written” with “well they are writing Gillian’s for Batman to fight. In that universe if there was no Batman there would be no villains. They are written for Batman to fight. Batman is the problem.
Yeah I was editing after that. I’ll add it here as well to save you some trouble.
No Superman, no villains. No Spiderman, no villains. No X-men, no villains. Not sure you’re really thinking this one through.
Yes! If you are taking the “that’s how it’s written “ route all those super heros are causing the problem lol
I thought it thru.
However with someone like let’s say Spider-Man. Spider-Man is a boy with no money or societal power. No influences. He got superpowers and used those super powers for “good”. Still a vigalant but he’s doesn’t have a lot of options and people aren’t exactly thrilled about Spider-Man doing spiderman shit.
Bruce Wayne is a billionaire with major society changing powers due to his extreme wealth and position. Instead of using his wealth and power to make change… he instead builds a bat cave and fights people with gadgets he buys.
If you found out bill gates put on a mask and cape and was fighting the mafia… physically with his hands…would you consider that a good idea? The best use of his time and money?
Or would you be like “bill, you need to just donate some money to people who actually know what they are doing.
Let’s talk about Oprah for a second. She built a school. It’s a good school. Sure. Hold a few hundred people. Free education. Nice. I’m not mad she built a school. It’s however worth pointing out instead of her personally building a multi million dollar school with chandeliers and 1000 thread count sheets… she could’ve donated that money to a charity that already has experience opening schools. She could’ve built 100 schools instead of 1 super expensive school. It would’ve helped a lot more people.
Is Oprah building a school bad? No. Was it a best avenue for her to get the best result? No. Because Oprah doesn’t know anything about schools. She should’ve left it to professionals.
Is Batman evil? No. Is he doing things properly? Absolutely not. He needs to be in a board room donating money like his parents did. His parents started the Wayne foundation. He built a bat cave.
I don’t think that’s the best use of his money.
Congrats on destroying all works of fiction I guess lmao
“If we just get rid of the protagonist then the antagonist won’t exist.” is a fucking goofy take dude c’mon.
NGL that’d be fucking dope.
She also could have built 0 schools. That very much was an option. Feels like you’re looking a gift horse in the mouth. I’d prefer the Carnegie Library strategy as well but shit any library is better then no library.
He started the foundation, not them. Even if his parents had started it, he’s still stewarding it and (presumably) funding it and ensuring it accomplishes its mission.
“Congrats on destroying all fiction”
To be fair that was my rebuttals to an argument you had. I don’t think I fully understand that argument. I gathered you were saying “he’s a hero because he’s written to be a hero” in that case the villains only exist to fight him. Which still makes him the problem.
But that’s not my argument really. I belive in the “death of the author” what the author intended is not how I’m required to view it.
So my “then Batman is the cuase of villains” argument is supposed to be silly because I feel “ the author says Batman is the only hope” is also silly.
But maybe I’m just not understanding that argument.
Oh and by the way I know I use quotes around things you didn’t actually say. It’s weird but that’s not me trying to straw man you. That’s me saying “this is what I heard you say” so you can see if I’m missing something important. It can be irritating if you think I’m purposefully misquoting you. That’s not my intent.
Either way o just want to take a second and thank you for the conversation. It’s very interesting even if I don’t fully agree with you. I’m having fun discussing this and you seem pretty intelligent. So thank you for that my friend.
I still think Batman is irresponsible tho lol
Btw your bill gates answer had me laughing. It would be rad as hell. But it wouldn’t be the best use of his skills. lol but yeah I’d respect bill a lot more if he did fight the mafia lol
As for operah I also agree. More billionaires should do what Oprah did… I’m just saying it’s not the best use. But better than nothing yes.
I think the joke that started all this actually came from the “behind the bastards” episode of Oprah. Robert Evan’s said the quote all this stared with. Funny guy.
Let me try another example. Imagine I was a billionaire. I’m not. let’s say the bump my pay to the billions.
As a billionaire every Saturday I walk to the beach and pick up trash. That’s good! But I could wrote a check for a million dollars and not even notice a dip in my bank account. I could hire hundreds of people to clean the beach. My time would be better spent running the charity that cleans the beach rather than me personally picking up trash.
So you’re argument is “if Luigi had sparked something it would’ve been great” that’s fine. But he didn’t spark anything.
A couple rich guys maybe hired a few more guards. That’s all.
Much like Batman. Vigilante justice doesn’t work. I’ve heard of exactly one example of vigalante justice that was cool. A whole town banded together to kill a really crappy dude who lived there and kept hurting people. Bit notice that wasn’t some random dude doing it. The whole town agreed that did had to go. So they killed him and he was no longer a problem.
That’s the only time I’ve seen it work and it wasn’t a Batman it was a whole town.
In a fictional world where the alternative is someone blowing up the planet, I assure you, it does work, as the planet in said fictional world still exists. It probably also helps that it is also written to work in this fictional world and that collateral damage is limited to non-existent.
In the real world, we don’t see as many people threatening to blow up the planet, and generally the social contract that gives the government a monopoly on force works out pretty well for resolving issues such as dudes being assholes. When the government doesn’t uphold its end of the social contract, then folks gotta take force into their own hands. Hence Ken McElroy (who I linked along with Luigi, btw.) though there are others, like The Secret Six, and Gary Plauché.
In that fictional world the bad guys only exist to fight Batman.
In the real world vigalantee justice doesn’t work. I mentioned the one time and you did link him. McElroy . But again that only worked because it was one guy who needed to be killed. It wouldn’t have worked if it was an organization or society that needed challenging.
I’ll look up your other examples if you want but I can follow that with all the times it just caused cycles of revenge instead of change for good.
Violence breed’s violence. Vigilante justice doesn’t work. Even in Batman. The writers write villains specifically to attack Batman. Because his existence breeds violence in that universe.