Holyy shit that’s a lot of reading. I got through a lot of it so far and honestly, I’m reaching a point where I don’t think I’m smart enough to have any real commentary. I will say the sources are pretty questionable. One of the sites you listed has a .cn address so it’s directly controlled by the Chinese government lol. Medium and YouTube and a website claiming to be an independent journalist…

This is probably a conversation for another time, but what if we’ve entered a period where no information I have or you have is plain fact? It’s increasingly likely. We could be both horribly wrong with no other way to prove anything except what is happening with the 5ft circle around us. It makes sense if most media available is controlled by two opposed governments trying to influence their people a certain way that neither have good intel.

It makes sense to me that a country attempting to unify itself in terms of language, economy, politics, etc. would be harsh and even persecute minority religions. It has happened everywhere in history. But it also makes sense the US would deploy destabilizing propaganda and assets into all foreign nations.

Anyways, I’m fine admitting this is beyond my paygrade as a socio-economic and political enthusiast.

I’ll concede on the idea that neither of us were there and both of us believe our sources are correct.

This is your argument? That this is allowed in a great example of Chinese socialism?

2022 report by the UN Human Rights Office (OHCHR) found that China’s arbitrary detention of Uyghurs and other predominantly Muslim minorities in Xinjiang may constitute “crimes against humanity,” citing credible evidence of torture, forced labor, and severe rights violations.

While the UN report did not formally label the actions as “genocide,” it highlighted evidence of coercive policies designed to suppress cultural and religious identity.

Key Findings of the UN Report:

• Arbitrary Detention: The report confirmed that mass internment camps, termed “vocational training” by the Chinese government, functioned as centers for detention.
• Torture and Abuse: Evidence was found of beatings, torture (including waterboarding), and sexual violence against detainees.
• Coercive Labor: Evidence suggests a scope of forced labor, with detainees transferred to factories or high-security prisons.
• Religious/Cultural Suppression: Policies aimed at “coercive Sinicization” forced individuals to abandon religious practices.

Brother. China sucks. The US sucks. Just get over it.

I’ll seriously consider what you’ve said with supporting evidence. It’s the first I’ve heard of this. I’m open to being taught.

One of my experiences in China was witnessing an underground Muslim gathering and religious ceremony. We were warned about why they must operate in secret due to potential government action.

If we do change the statement from genocide to persecution, I suppose China gets a better profile, but I don’t think it is a talking point that “China’s socialism is better than US Capitalism because of their religious freedom.”

My initial argument is still that both systems suck.

This one of the markers I would use for a “good” system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index

The Inequality Adjusted Human Development Index.

Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland… these are the leaders in this index. How? A high-welfare free market economy.

This is capitalism but with a foundation of human rights built on high taxes using examples like net wealth tax.

How about 30-50 million dead from starvation while trying to implement communism under Mao? How about Tiananmen Square?

Do you realize that the government punishes those who bring it up and leave it out of the history books for the younger generations?

What about Uyghur genocide?

You can walk around the campus of a Chinese university, ask person after person about the Tiananmen Square massacre and no one knows what the hell you’re talking about.

You think this is the shining example of socialism that should be implemented across the globe?

No thank you.

First off, I don’t have any right wing, let alone far right propaganda in my life. I’m a progressive. Do you think a MAGA idiot would go live in China themselves? Obviously not.

I don’t actually need evidence to be correct, because I saw it first hand. But I probably can prove it anyways. The simplest way: there are multiple definitions of literacy. They now call it functioning literacy in some cases. Others get very specific such as can they read a newspaper or write a statement about a topic? I do believe China is achieving great things with their younger generations. That, I also saw first hand. Although, they conveniently rewrite history as well. Completely covering up the atrocities the government has caused. That is pretty unforgivable.

Anyways, the older generation is filled with people who are still illiterate. They are not in school. They are not learning. They are working. And mostly happy by the way. Illiteracy is not a criticism on well being. That was someone else’s argument that “they must be doing well because they’ve achieved so much LITERACY.” Those are the happiest people I’ve ever met. Willing to share their food and home with total strangers. Their jobs and their lives and their happiness do not require literacy. That is why they will never change. Only once the younger generation has outlived the older long enough to reach a 97% rate could we call it the achievement you are wanting to believe.

Anyways, none of this has anything to do with my initial statement. Both systems suck! Everyone else is throwing these random statements such as literacy to try to change the argument. Draw it into a which is better contest. It’s just like red and blue politics in America. Fuck all that. We the people, everywhere, deserve better than either of these power and control hungry psychos would have for us. Period.

First off, I’m a progressive. Second, I lived in China for 6 months and I’m telling you the statistic is wrong. I have first hand experience among the many many many rural areas that are basically third world. China historically reports garbage numbers and this one of them. Shocking I know! How could they!

Nothing you said contradicts anything I wrote, so I’m struggling to understand why you started your comment this way. To say “everything wrong with my post” then address nothing I wrote… I’m not sure you should be quoting literacy at all.

You’ll find I’m highly critical of both China and the US once we discuss further.

Lastly, there is no chance in hell China’s literacy reached 97%, not will it as long as rural lifestyle continues with no need for it.

I’ll bite.

China is not communist. But we should talk about different economic systems because that’s the ultimate goal.

Communism in itself is a true ideal as long as output exceeds intake and satisfaction is high. It’s also possible on a global scale, if not designed for it.

Capitalism is also a true ideal as long as it’s built on an immovable foundation of human rights paid for by centralized non profit corporations.

The issue has nothing to do with the ideas themselves. The issue is and always has been the concentration of power.

It is the ideas of the few which can never properly represent the masses. Even with the best intentions. The only true ideal for power is that there is none except when handled by all. The US Constitution seemed to have this idea in mind with its intent, though it’s evolved into the same old concentration of power over time. Doesn’t matter which party either. The reality is power is so concentrated now that there are no true parties anymore. This is a mafia that transcends both sides.

So no China is no proof of anything except improper concentration of power. Mostly capitalist by the way. And totally tyrannical in their wielding of power against free thought, sex, religion, etc. It’s practically anti freedom and contradicts every protected class we have in the US.

Does anyone have the statistics on how many abortion occur there? Even if you’re pro choice, the piles of discarded fetuses could reach skyscraper height. This is not a normal issue to have. How many illiterate? How many old people died while they were bolted inside their homes during COVID?

If the question is what system would you be willing to put your life in the hands of, there is only one answer: which one has the most distributed power and wealth above the rest.