I’m really torn by this argument. To me it’s mainly an argument against capitalism (and a valid one for that).
The vast majority of cleaning personal might as well be single mothers to meet their means of survival. Also: where I am, there is “good enough” social security, so it’s not about survival.
People working at construction sites are ruining their body to make ends meet (to pick up your argument again). Sure, you could not argue that they are raped, but enslaved then.
Yes, wage labor is also shit, it is inherently exploitative and you’re also forced to sell your labor power to procure your needs for survival. While work itself is necessary to sustain life, wage labor isn’t and it’s not something to valorize.
This post is literally valorizing one of the most horrible types of work, ones that more often than not results in literal slavery by pimps, targets the most desperate and vulnerable, and in general commodifies one of the most intimate activities two consenting adults can do and gives ‘customers’ carte blanche to rape.
The amount of violence, trafficking, abuse, trauma, etc sex industry (even in regulated form) creates is horrifying, but I guess it’s okay because it “supports the local community!! Be sure to purchase your own sex slave today!”. It’s not a wholesome 100 small business.
I absolutely condemn pimping and forced labor (sex or other). So I guess I agree with you quite a bit.
But where does this turn into rape? I can’t follow. “Rape is a type of sexual assault involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without their consent.” (I googled, AI spit that out, claims it’s from Wikipedia. But I hope we can vaguely agree on this definition?). It’s bought consent. A huge amount of consent is bought, outside of prostitution. With money, with power, with influence.
Just because you have exchanged money for sex doesn’t mean the sex worker can no longer revoke consent. Rape is a huge danger for sex workers and it is wild that you’re sitting here confused about how rape happens.
Consent isn’t something that’s bought or sold, ‘bought consent’ is literally coercion.
Compare and contrast two situations: one, where two people go “hey, we both like each other and are both horny, let’s do it tonight” and thus doing it to share intimacy/mutually satisfy their needs and another where a stranger goes “hey, let me fuck you and I’ll give you money so you can afford your future survival, or starve to death”, and it doesn’t have to be money but position of power or other type of coercion. Even if the other person in the second example agrees, it’s not because they freely “want to do it” (they might not even have a choice) but because of what they might receive after the act, one person using their position of power over another.
If it’s coercion, there can be no free consent. If there’s no consent, it’s rape (like the definition you dropped says). If the rape is sold for money, it’s merely commodified.
The more you give the more you might get. True for many many jobs. But this is not forcing, this is not “have to”. This is setting you own boundaries. Like you do with every relationship, private, business, erotic (for lack of a better word) or not.
So you think that workplace sexual harassment (exchanging bonuses or promotions or other benefits for sexual activities) is fine, as long as the coercion is only monetary?
Like what do you mean? That work is like a relationship? I don’t get the comparison. Work is a totally different type of relationship because of the exchange of money. It makes it so you can’t walk away from situations at work that you would in real life
I’m really torn by this argument. To me it’s mainly an argument against capitalism (and a valid one for that).
The vast majority of cleaning personal might as well be single mothers to meet their means of survival. Also: where I am, there is “good enough” social security, so it’s not about survival.
People working at construction sites are ruining their body to make ends meet (to pick up your argument again). Sure, you could not argue that they are raped, but enslaved then.
Edit: the -> there
Yes, wage labor is also shit, it is inherently exploitative and you’re also forced to sell your labor power to procure your needs for survival. While work itself is necessary to sustain life, wage labor isn’t and it’s not something to valorize.
This post is literally valorizing one of the most horrible types of work, ones that more often than not results in literal slavery by pimps, targets the most desperate and vulnerable, and in general commodifies one of the most intimate activities two consenting adults can do and gives ‘customers’ carte blanche to rape.
The amount of violence, trafficking, abuse, trauma, etc sex industry (even in regulated form) creates is horrifying, but I guess it’s okay because it “supports the local community!! Be sure to purchase your own sex slave today!”. It’s not a wholesome 100 small business.
I absolutely condemn pimping and forced labor (sex or other). So I guess I agree with you quite a bit.
But where does this turn into rape? I can’t follow. “Rape is a type of sexual assault involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without their consent.” (I googled, AI spit that out, claims it’s from Wikipedia. But I hope we can vaguely agree on this definition?). It’s bought consent. A huge amount of consent is bought, outside of prostitution. With money, with power, with influence.
Just because you have exchanged money for sex doesn’t mean the sex worker can no longer revoke consent. Rape is a huge danger for sex workers and it is wild that you’re sitting here confused about how rape happens.
I never discussed revoked consent, and I fully agree that consent can change. Never said anything different, right?
I’m not confused, and you start making things up.
Sex workers are often raped in the course of their profession. What are you confused about here?
Consent isn’t something that’s bought or sold, ‘bought consent’ is literally coercion.
Compare and contrast two situations: one, where two people go “hey, we both like each other and are both horny, let’s do it tonight” and thus doing it to share intimacy/mutually satisfy their needs and another where a stranger goes “hey, let me fuck you and I’ll give you money so you can afford your future survival, or starve to death”, and it doesn’t have to be money but position of power or other type of coercion. Even if the other person in the second example agrees, it’s not because they freely “want to do it” (they might not even have a choice) but because of what they might receive after the act, one person using their position of power over another.
If it’s coercion, there can be no free consent. If there’s no consent, it’s rape (like the definition you dropped says). If the rape is sold for money, it’s merely commodified.
My boss used to buy my consent to do his (non sex) work for many years.
They’re both exploitative, but just imagine like you had to kiss you’re boss on the mouth the unlock your full bonus.
The more you give the more you might get. True for many many jobs. But this is not forcing, this is not “have to”. This is setting you own boundaries. Like you do with every relationship, private, business, erotic (for lack of a better word) or not.
So you think that workplace sexual harassment (exchanging bonuses or promotions or other benefits for sexual activities) is fine, as long as the coercion is only monetary?
No, that’s not what I said.
I have re-read the comment thread like three times and I don’t see any other interpretation.
“just imagine like you had to kiss you’re boss on the mouth the unlock your full bonus” (textbook workspace sexual harassment)
Response:
How is this anything but defending sexual harassment?
I read the ‘kiss boss on mouth’ in the context of prostitution, where this might be agreed upon. Thought you asked me to take their perspective.
I don’t understand your implication. You’ll have to spell it out for me please :)
Not sure what/which part you mean. If “all”, then sorry, no.
Like what do you mean? That work is like a relationship? I don’t get the comparison. Work is a totally different type of relationship because of the exchange of money. It makes it so you can’t walk away from situations at work that you would in real life
Ah. I meant ‘relationship’ in the broader sense. Like the relation you have with any entity you interact with.
Yeah I kind of started to figure that’s what you probably meant as I was writing my comment.
I think we have pretty different views on stuff because I consider these necessarily way different relationships.