Right and that’s why countries have pledged to defend China…from itself? Is that the argument you are wanting to make? The reason its not recognized by the Un is because China is a power player with veto rights. Its all stupid politics to not upset china
You do understand the history right? The US chose to back the KMT on Taiwan, sort of like if England had decided to back the Confederates if they hold up in Florida. Except the KMT on Taiwan never seceded. In fact, they organized a fascist dictatorship on the island and they imprisoned and killed anyone who wanted to reunify with the mainland, and they also imprisoned and killed anyone who wanted to secede. The US was supporting them throughout the entire 4 decades of the White Terror wherein the government in Taiwan explicitly stated they were not a separate nation.
In fact, a bunch of Chinese people from Taiwan who fled to the US or Japan tried to build secessionary movements in exile and the KMT on Taiwan chased them down with spies and assassins to stop them.
Just because the US carries on the age old tradition of white European empires trying to pull pieces of China way from China doesn’t mean Taiwan isn’t part of China.
I do understand history, thanks. I mean, if you wanted to make the comparison, you got it backwards. And saying Taiwan imprisoned and killed a bunch of people for disagreeing seems to just be part of how China functions then, because mainland Taiwan has done the exact same thing lol.
It’s literally never been a country in its entire history. It is a province of China, it is recognized internationally as a province of China. No one has ever recognized it as a separate country. It doesn’t have any legal standing as a separate country. It doesn’t claim to be a separate country. And anyone in Taiwan that tried to claim it was a separate country was killed by the leadership of Taiwan for 40 years, and anyone from Taiwan that left and tried to claim it was a separate country was a target of the government on Taiwan to silence them from trying to say Taiwan was a separate country.
The only people who think Taiwan is a separate country are Westerners trying to justify why the US should have lethal military force installed and ready 4 miles off the coast of mainland China.
It’s literally never been a country in its entire history.
This is factually wrong. There has been a native population with their own governance for most of its history.
There have been some smaller trading outposts from the mainland Chinese over the course of history, but the Portuguese and Dutch traders actually had more influence on the island than those Chinese traders who carefully avoided conflict with the native population.
The claim over the island by the Chinese empire ever only existed on paper until a brief period in the late 19th early 20th century when they tried to brutally colonize the island only to be shortly after overrun by the Japanese who happily took over the colony.
There has been a native population with their own governance for most of its history.
The Austronesians of the main island lived on a couple of other islands around the mainland, but their inhabitance did not match 1-to-1 with the borders of the province of Taiwan. I agree with you that there was a country (and a nation) that the indigenous Austronesians of the region comprise, but that county is not Taiwan and that nation is not Taiwanese.
There have been some smaller trading outposts from the mainland Chinese over the course of history, but the Portuguese and Dutch traders actually had more influence on the island than those Chinese traders who carefully avoided conflict with the native population.
Correct, the Han Chinese were not anywhere near as brutal colonizers as the Europeans were. The Dutch in particular hunted the Formosa sika deer nearly to extinction. What that shows, more than anything, is that the Europeans shouldn’t be trusted in any of their positions relative to the region since they’ve been violent psychotic extractivists for 6 centuries and their only motivations are their own personal enrichment and the total subjugation of everyone else.
The claim over the island by the Chinese empire ever only existed on paper until a brief period in the late 19th/early 20th century when they tried to brutally colonize the island
Half truths are the worst kind. The Chinese empire invaded the region specifically to kick out the Europeans. Like, it’s very explicit that the purpose of the invasion was to get rid of the Dutch East India Company. Europeans went out colonizing proactively and committing genocide because their pope said they should. The Ming invaded Formosa to get rid of foreign invaders. That wasn’t in the late 19th century. The Dutch surrendered in 1662. Ming China held Taiwan at that moment. Qing China held Taiwan 20 years later when the Ming loyalists officially surrendered. When that occurred, there was a debate as to whether or not they should maintain occupation of the island. Some argued it wasn’t worth it. But the argument that won day? If we don’t hold, the Europeans will come back, establish their military bases on it, and attack us. Does that sound familiar? Because it’s literally the exact same argument that’s being made 400 years later because the Eurocentric empire is STILL establishing military bases in the region with the intent of attacking the mainland.
The Han Chinese occupation of the island is a relationship of settler colonialism. The Austronesians are the indigenous. The Han Chinese that live in the province today are not entitled to a distinct national self-determination. They are part of the Chinese nation. Taiwan seceding from China would be even less legitimate than the European colonists seceding from England because the colonists were not operating as a 70-year protectorate of a world power on the other side of the world with ZERO legitimate claims or history in the region.
I would LOVE to see to Taiwan decolonized, the place names of the Austronesians reestablished, the nation of Austronesians self-determined and self-governing. But we’re not going to get that by having a bunch of comprador Han Chinese in the province align themselves with the most genocidal military in the world that continues to exterminate the culture of its own indigenous people. It’s only going to happen through successive resolutions of contradiction, starting with the end of the Eurocentric empire’s presence in the entire region, including The Phillipines, Indonesia, Korea, the province of Taiwan, and the Western Pacific ocean. When that happens, and China has organized Taiwan province under it’s centuries-long demonstrated and proven One Country Two Systems approach, then the conditions for addressing the colonial contradiction will emerge and the work can begin. But America ripping the Han Chinese into two countries, one of them a protectorate and a proxy and the other a mortal enemy, is just a continuation of 600 years of brutal European empire building and it needs to stop.
The Austronesians of the main island lived on a couple of other islands around the mainland, but their inhabitance did not match 1-to-1 with the borders of the province of Taiwan. I agree with you that there was a country (and a nation) that the indigenous Austronesians of the region comprise, but that county is not Taiwan and that nation is not Taiwanese.
Only semantics really.
The Ming invaded Formosa to get rid of foreign invaders. That wasn’t in the late 19th century. The Dutch surrendered in 1662.
This was a naval campaign involving a few outposts and never did anything about the majority of the island that was self governed by the native population, despite European and Chinese interference. But you are right that as a backwater it wasn’t really considered to be worth the hassle at the time.
This changed in 1874 as a reaction to a brief Japanese invasion, and the subsequent subjugation of the native population was indeed a settler colonial project by the Chinese that was continued by the Japanese when they took over in 1895. The Europeans also meddled with the status during the Sino-French war in 1883/84, but it was quite inconsequential.
The Han Chinese occupation of the island is a relationship of settler colonialism. The Austronesians are the indigenous. The Han Chinese that live in the province today are not entitled to a distinct national self-determination.
You are so close to getting it 😅 Taiwan was always an independent nation subject to various settler colonial efforts by the Chinese and others. The Chinese have no claim over the island whatsoever, neither the current administration of the mainland, nor the Kuomintang when they invaded and settled there.
I would LOVE to see to Taiwan decolonized, the place names of the Austronesians reestablished, the nation of Austronesians self-determined and self-governing.
And how exactly does further colonization by the Chinese mainland help with that goal? The Taiwanese nation is on the slow way of doing so, but they chose the peaceful way of integrating with the Han Chinese that settled there after WW2. Your focus on the specific Austronesian ethnicity is IMHO extremely racist, and restoring them as the sole inhabitants would be nothing short of a genocide of a large part of the current population that chose peaceful democratic coexistence in the last couple of decades.
Nah dawg, maybe some of the people think that. Most of think that China just needs to fuck off. It is a country, it checks all the boxes required. I just don’t like the taste of boot leather
If you don’t like the taste of boot leather, why are you supporting the idea that the US military should be allowed to deployed military assets to threaten China, including stationing troops just off the coast of the mainland, in the same program of the US supporting a brutal military dictatorship for 40 years that killed and tortured people just for saying they think the civil war should end and the KMT should just surrender?
Or are you a fan of the Confederates and believe the South should rise again?
Oh the mental gymnastics, no not liking boot leather means not liking boot leather. Chinese or otherwise. I like countries living in peace. Taiwan wants to be alone then they should be. Why is it ok for China to threaten others but not the us? Why the double standards?
Right and that’s why countries have pledged to defend China…from itself? Is that the argument you are wanting to make? The reason its not recognized by the Un is because China is a power player with veto rights. Its all stupid politics to not upset china
You do understand the history right? The US chose to back the KMT on Taiwan, sort of like if England had decided to back the Confederates if they hold up in Florida. Except the KMT on Taiwan never seceded. In fact, they organized a fascist dictatorship on the island and they imprisoned and killed anyone who wanted to reunify with the mainland, and they also imprisoned and killed anyone who wanted to secede. The US was supporting them throughout the entire 4 decades of the White Terror wherein the government in Taiwan explicitly stated they were not a separate nation.
In fact, a bunch of Chinese people from Taiwan who fled to the US or Japan tried to build secessionary movements in exile and the KMT on Taiwan chased them down with spies and assassins to stop them.
Just because the US carries on the age old tradition of white European empires trying to pull pieces of China way from China doesn’t mean Taiwan isn’t part of China.
I do understand history, thanks. I mean, if you wanted to make the comparison, you got it backwards. And saying Taiwan imprisoned and killed a bunch of people for disagreeing seems to just be part of how China functions then, because mainland Taiwan has done the exact same thing lol.
Given that Taiwan has never existed as a country, your position that the two bodies are part of the same country is aligned with my position
Given that you’re wrong, and that Taiwan is a country, no. Just because its not recognized by the un doesn’t make it not a country lol
It’s literally never been a country in its entire history. It is a province of China, it is recognized internationally as a province of China. No one has ever recognized it as a separate country. It doesn’t have any legal standing as a separate country. It doesn’t claim to be a separate country. And anyone in Taiwan that tried to claim it was a separate country was killed by the leadership of Taiwan for 40 years, and anyone from Taiwan that left and tried to claim it was a separate country was a target of the government on Taiwan to silence them from trying to say Taiwan was a separate country.
The only people who think Taiwan is a separate country are Westerners trying to justify why the US should have lethal military force installed and ready 4 miles off the coast of mainland China.
This is factually wrong. There has been a native population with their own governance for most of its history.
There have been some smaller trading outposts from the mainland Chinese over the course of history, but the Portuguese and Dutch traders actually had more influence on the island than those Chinese traders who carefully avoided conflict with the native population.
The claim over the island by the Chinese empire ever only existed on paper until a brief period in the late 19th
early 20thcentury when they tried to brutally colonize the island only to be shortly after overrun by the Japanese who happily took over the colony.The Austronesians of the main island lived on a couple of other islands around the mainland, but their inhabitance did not match 1-to-1 with the borders of the province of Taiwan. I agree with you that there was a country (and a nation) that the indigenous Austronesians of the region comprise, but that county is not Taiwan and that nation is not Taiwanese.
Correct, the Han Chinese were not anywhere near as brutal colonizers as the Europeans were. The Dutch in particular hunted the Formosa sika deer nearly to extinction. What that shows, more than anything, is that the Europeans shouldn’t be trusted in any of their positions relative to the region since they’ve been violent psychotic extractivists for 6 centuries and their only motivations are their own personal enrichment and the total subjugation of everyone else.
Half truths are the worst kind. The Chinese empire invaded the region specifically to kick out the Europeans. Like, it’s very explicit that the purpose of the invasion was to get rid of the Dutch East India Company. Europeans went out colonizing proactively and committing genocide because their pope said they should. The Ming invaded Formosa to get rid of foreign invaders. That wasn’t in the late 19th century. The Dutch surrendered in 1662. Ming China held Taiwan at that moment. Qing China held Taiwan 20 years later when the Ming loyalists officially surrendered. When that occurred, there was a debate as to whether or not they should maintain occupation of the island. Some argued it wasn’t worth it. But the argument that won day? If we don’t hold, the Europeans will come back, establish their military bases on it, and attack us. Does that sound familiar? Because it’s literally the exact same argument that’s being made 400 years later because the Eurocentric empire is STILL establishing military bases in the region with the intent of attacking the mainland.
The Han Chinese occupation of the island is a relationship of settler colonialism. The Austronesians are the indigenous. The Han Chinese that live in the province today are not entitled to a distinct national self-determination. They are part of the Chinese nation. Taiwan seceding from China would be even less legitimate than the European colonists seceding from England because the colonists were not operating as a 70-year protectorate of a world power on the other side of the world with ZERO legitimate claims or history in the region.
I would LOVE to see to Taiwan decolonized, the place names of the Austronesians reestablished, the nation of Austronesians self-determined and self-governing. But we’re not going to get that by having a bunch of comprador Han Chinese in the province align themselves with the most genocidal military in the world that continues to exterminate the culture of its own indigenous people. It’s only going to happen through successive resolutions of contradiction, starting with the end of the Eurocentric empire’s presence in the entire region, including The Phillipines, Indonesia, Korea, the province of Taiwan, and the Western Pacific ocean. When that happens, and China has organized Taiwan province under it’s centuries-long demonstrated and proven One Country Two Systems approach, then the conditions for addressing the colonial contradiction will emerge and the work can begin. But America ripping the Han Chinese into two countries, one of them a protectorate and a proxy and the other a mortal enemy, is just a continuation of 600 years of brutal European empire building and it needs to stop.
Only semantics really.
This was a naval campaign involving a few outposts and never did anything about the majority of the island that was self governed by the native population, despite European and Chinese interference. But you are right that as a backwater it wasn’t really considered to be worth the hassle at the time.
This changed in 1874 as a reaction to a brief Japanese invasion, and the subsequent subjugation of the native population was indeed a settler colonial project by the Chinese that was continued by the Japanese when they took over in 1895. The Europeans also meddled with the status during the Sino-French war in 1883/84, but it was quite inconsequential.
You are so close to getting it 😅 Taiwan was always an independent nation subject to various settler colonial efforts by the Chinese and others. The Chinese have no claim over the island whatsoever, neither the current administration of the mainland, nor the Kuomintang when they invaded and settled there.
And how exactly does further colonization by the Chinese mainland help with that goal? The Taiwanese nation is on the slow way of doing so, but they chose the peaceful way of integrating with the Han Chinese that settled there after WW2. Your focus on the specific Austronesian ethnicity is IMHO extremely racist, and restoring them as the sole inhabitants would be nothing short of a genocide of a large part of the current population that chose peaceful democratic coexistence in the last couple of decades.
Nah dawg, maybe some of the people think that. Most of think that China just needs to fuck off. It is a country, it checks all the boxes required. I just don’t like the taste of boot leather
If you don’t like the taste of boot leather, why are you supporting the idea that the US military should be allowed to deployed military assets to threaten China, including stationing troops just off the coast of the mainland, in the same program of the US supporting a brutal military dictatorship for 40 years that killed and tortured people just for saying they think the civil war should end and the KMT should just surrender?
Or are you a fan of the Confederates and believe the South should rise again?
Oh the mental gymnastics, no not liking boot leather means not liking boot leather. Chinese or otherwise. I like countries living in peace. Taiwan wants to be alone then they should be. Why is it ok for China to threaten others but not the us? Why the double standards?