You can of course use it as a tool to attack trans women. But that isn’t all it is, no? Reading other replies here there seems to be quite a few people that regard them self trans women and male socialized. Reasoning is clearly stated in those comments.
I am a cis male and very interested in learning what you and other people that are against the idea of male socialized as a term think and why. It really isn’t gas lighting or trying to steal your time or patronizing. I want to learn how you arrived at those conclusions and maybe even how some arrived at the opposite end of them.
Your relationship with that socialisation was very different to mine. We both experienced similar pressures and expectations, and we both received similar privileges based on the way people perceived us, but our lived experience of that was very different.
An analogy is a closeted gay man that has to marry a woman and have kids due to social pressure. He receives many of the privileges of being straight, but it comes at the cost of himself. Calling that straight privilege erases that cost to him, and the price he had to pay by faking a role that wasn’t his.
Nuance is important, and some privileges are real. But being forced to be perceived as someone that you aren’t is not a privilege, and that shouldn’t be ignored.
I’ll also add, I internalized the messages for girls while being punished for failing to meet the standards for boys. It’s why I say I was socialized transfeminine.
And my socialization post transition has involved its own unique brutality
I would say that at the very least it’s not a term that you as a cisgender person would use to describe any transgender person.
If a trans person decides to describe themselves that way, for whatever reason, that is up to them. But it remains a term that should be used by trans people about themselves.
Important to consider is that many transgender people have big time internalized transphobia. I struggled with it a lot. You (might) go through years, decades, of denying who you are to yourself, hating the aspects of yourself that dont conform to the general idea of the gender you were assigned at birth, and that doesn’t just disappear when you realise and start transitioning.
I’m not saying every trans person in this thread who describes themselves as “male socialized” is doing so because of internalised transphobia, I’m just suggesting it is worth bearing in mind.
I mean, unless you were raised by hippy parents who raised you androgynous from birth, if you are a trans woman, you experienced male socialization. All that means is people treated you like a male. It doesn’t mean anything beyond that. Socialization refers to things external to you.
I think there’s a degree of internalized transphobia in rejecting such a clear and straight forward concept. I get not wanting to acknowledge our pasts, but it is internally transphobic to deny one’s own trans experiences.
There’s nothing shameful about having been socialized male.
You directly accused me of internalised transphobia. I mentioned that internalized transphobia may be a factor in some people’s attachment to the concept. Disengage.
You can of course use it as a tool to attack trans women. But that isn’t all it is, no? Reading other replies here there seems to be quite a few people that regard them self trans women and male socialized. Reasoning is clearly stated in those comments.
I am a cis male and very interested in learning what you and other people that are against the idea of male socialized as a term think and why. It really isn’t gas lighting or trying to steal your time or patronizing. I want to learn how you arrived at those conclusions and maybe even how some arrived at the opposite end of them.
Your relationship with that socialisation was very different to mine. We both experienced similar pressures and expectations, and we both received similar privileges based on the way people perceived us, but our lived experience of that was very different.
An analogy is a closeted gay man that has to marry a woman and have kids due to social pressure. He receives many of the privileges of being straight, but it comes at the cost of himself. Calling that straight privilege erases that cost to him, and the price he had to pay by faking a role that wasn’t his.
Nuance is important, and some privileges are real. But being forced to be perceived as someone that you aren’t is not a privilege, and that shouldn’t be ignored.
I’ll also add, I internalized the messages for girls while being punished for failing to meet the standards for boys. It’s why I say I was socialized transfeminine.
And my socialization post transition has involved its own unique brutality
I would say that at the very least it’s not a term that you as a cisgender person would use to describe any transgender person.
If a trans person decides to describe themselves that way, for whatever reason, that is up to them. But it remains a term that should be used by trans people about themselves.
Important to consider is that many transgender people have big time internalized transphobia. I struggled with it a lot. You (might) go through years, decades, of denying who you are to yourself, hating the aspects of yourself that dont conform to the general idea of the gender you were assigned at birth, and that doesn’t just disappear when you realise and start transitioning.
I’m not saying every trans person in this thread who describes themselves as “male socialized” is doing so because of internalised transphobia, I’m just suggesting it is worth bearing in mind.
I mean, unless you were raised by hippy parents who raised you androgynous from birth, if you are a trans woman, you experienced male socialization. All that means is people treated you like a male. It doesn’t mean anything beyond that. Socialization refers to things external to you.
I think there’s a degree of internalized transphobia in rejecting such a clear and straight forward concept. I get not wanting to acknowledge our pasts, but it is internally transphobic to deny one’s own trans experiences.
There’s nothing shameful about having been socialized male.
Ew. I have nothing more to say to you if you’re gonna start asserting things about me. Disengaging from this conversation and I hope you will too.
So you can accuse others of internalized transphobia, but not the other way around?
You directly accused me of internalised transphobia. I mentioned that internalized transphobia may be a factor in some people’s attachment to the concept. Disengage.