China says they support international law, but then dont, look at what they do in the south pacific, the 9 dashes or whatever, making territorial claims against the Philippines and Taiwan, copy right infringement etc. Im not mad at China for training russian troops they are somewhat friendly to one another.
I think the artificial islands is China trying to be clever. Allegedly they are doing that to ensure their commercial traffic, IDK if this is really necessary? But some say that USA (through allies) have China kind of locked in, and could block Chinese transports in case of conflict.
If that is true, I can understand how that is a problem for China, and why they are trying to get around it.
Yep, just look at all their activities in SEA. The Indonesian and Laos governments are already being held hostage since they are using their national budgets and some of their national assets as collateral.
Well, it’s certainly not it’s own nation as Taiwan people are part of the Han Chinese nation. Perhaps the Han Chinese in Taiwan will eventually become a State that is separate from China. But so far that hasn’t happened.
Taiwan is de facto an independent state. They have their own customs (as in economy), their own military and their own independent government.
No one officially recognizes it as independent because - as it turns out - neither China has any interest in changing the status quo. It is however very much implicitly recognized as independent considering trade deals made with mainland China do not affect trade deals with Taiwan and vice versa.
For all intents and purposes, Taiwan is more of a country than England but you’ll find hardly anyone argue that England does not have countryhood.
Country / state / nation. These words have meaning. England is both a country and a nation but not an independent state. Taiwan meets the definition of a country in that it is defined territory, but it is not a nation. It is not an independent state, as it claims to be the government of China, not the government of Taiwan. It makes trade agreements as the government of China. And the reason other countries play along with this is because the US and UK decided that they would make Taiwan into a comprador proxy and invested tons of money into it, while they embargoed the shit out of China and no one was allowed to trade with both China and the USA. The evidence you are using for Taiwan being independent is actually evidence that they are dependent entirely on the USA. Without the USA, the KMT would have been stopped in their reign of terror long before 40 years were up and the province would have been reintegrated into China after 75 years of national trauma.
It is not an independent state, as it claims to be the government of China, not the government of Taiwan.
… which it only does because the PRC threatens with war if Taiwan would drop it.
As it stands now, the majority of the Taiwanese no longer consider themselves Chinese, but the PRC wants to keep that illusion alive for their annexation goals to seem justified. This is solely on the PRC.
Yeah, and most Americans, Canadians, and Australians don’t consider themselves European colonizers, but they don’t get to decide to that, because history matters. The Han Chinese living in the province of Taiwan are Han Chinese. They are of the Chinese nation, and they have never been otherwise. They have never seceded from China.
Are you saying that the people of Taiwan have a right to secession? From where does that right derive? The Confederates didn’t have a right to secession. Texas doesn’t have a right to secession. Quebec doesn’t have a right to secession. In pretty much every context you can think of, a secession would cause a civil war.
But imagine this: a secession with a geopolitical enemy providing massive military support. Do you think that if China came to Canada and built up a military presence in Quebec to protect their secession that this would be a totally valid thing to do and Canada should let them? Do you think the Chinese navy is allowed to encircle Hawaii and help them secede from the US and that if the US tried to stop them that would be beligerence?
No. Of course you don’t think those things. You only see the narrative of Taiwan from the West. You don’t see the military reality of 70 years of US military intervention and support for fascist dictatorship. You don’t think through the implications of what 40 years (3+ generations) of violent mass murdering fascist political persecution for desiring reunification did to the population of Taiwan (hint, it skewed public opinion pretty dramatically for their own self preservation).
You don’t even realize that Hong Kong and Taiwan were transitioned to liberal democracies at almost the exact same time, and only a few years after South Korea was beginning its transition, coinciding with the clear signs that the USSR was collapsing and the threat of global communism was coming to end. The US and UK administrators of these territories decided that they didn’t need to worry about communism anymore so they allowed the transition to liberal democracy to occur. If it was going to be too dangerous, they would have kept supporting the dictatorship and colonial administration and supported the violent repression of protests, like they had been doing for decades.
The people of Taiwan province do not have a right to secession and the US does not have a right to militarily defend their secession. Taiwan has never stopped being a province of China and just because the world’s most psychotic, beligerent, genocidal military is trying to tug at your heart strings with stories of resistance and democracy, the reality is that you wouldn’t support this configuration in literally any other context.
Yeah, and most Americans, Canadians, and Australians don’t consider themselves European colonizers, but they don’t get to decide to that, because history matters.
So? Are you arguing that there is neither America, Canada nor Australia but only British Empire?
They have never seceded from China.
Because the PRC said that the moment Taiwan does so, there will be war. Taiwan is forced by the PRC to keep the ‘China’ label.
Quebec doesn’t have a right to secession.
How is it of relevance how Quebec handles its affairs? Canada is exerting control over Quebec. The PRC never did over Taiwan. Not now, not ten, not 50 years ago. Never.
In pretty much every context you can think of, a secession would cause a civil war.
There was civil war and the PRC tried to conquer Taiwan but failed. It never established control over these parts. So there you go. De facto, Taiwan is not part of the PRC. De facto, Taiwan doesn’t even want to be China anymore. It is only the PRC getting sore over an island they never controlled as they cannot accept Chinese culture beyond their control. But that’s not a problem of the world, but a PRC problem.
Austrians are of German origin. Are you arguing there is no Austria but only Germany? What about the Swiss? Should they be divided by Germany, France and Italy? Belgium?
And on the contrary, are you therefore arguing that the PRC should piss off from the regions they’ve annexed in the past and where they enforce Han culture since? Tibet, Shinjang? All the other parts of the PRC where the Han colonised? Let me guess…
Right and that’s why countries have pledged to defend China…from itself? Is that the argument you are wanting to make? The reason its not recognized by the Un is because China is a power player with veto rights. Its all stupid politics to not upset china
You do understand the history right? The US chose to back the KMT on Taiwan, sort of like if England had decided to back the Confederates if they hold up in Florida. Except the KMT on Taiwan never seceded. In fact, they organized a fascist dictatorship on the island and they imprisoned and killed anyone who wanted to reunify with the mainland, and they also imprisoned and killed anyone who wanted to secede. The US was supporting them throughout the entire 4 decades of the White Terror wherein the government in Taiwan explicitly stated they were not a separate nation.
In fact, a bunch of Chinese people from Taiwan who fled to the US or Japan tried to build secessionary movements in exile and the KMT on Taiwan chased them down with spies and assassins to stop them.
Just because the US carries on the age old tradition of white European empires trying to pull pieces of China way from China doesn’t mean Taiwan isn’t part of China.
I do understand history, thanks. I mean, if you wanted to make the comparison, you got it backwards. And saying Taiwan imprisoned and killed a bunch of people for disagreeing seems to just be part of how China functions then, because mainland Taiwan has done the exact same thing lol.
China says they support international law, but then dont, look at what they do in the south pacific, the 9 dashes or whatever, making territorial claims against the Philippines and Taiwan, copy right infringement etc. Im not mad at China for training russian troops they are somewhat friendly to one another.
I think the artificial islands is China trying to be clever. Allegedly they are doing that to ensure their commercial traffic, IDK if this is really necessary? But some say that USA (through allies) have China kind of locked in, and could block Chinese transports in case of conflict.
If that is true, I can understand how that is a problem for China, and why they are trying to get around it.
No, that’s just excusing china’s behavior. They do shit like all the big players do
Yep, just look at all their activities in SEA. The Indonesian and Laos governments are already being held hostage since they are using their national budgets and some of their national assets as collateral.
The UN recognizes that Taiwan is a province of the nation-state of China. That’s why there is no official Taiwan delegation to the UN.
And the un is wrong an awful lot. Taiwan is its own nation. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk
Well, it’s certainly not it’s own nation as Taiwan people are part of the Han Chinese nation. Perhaps the Han Chinese in Taiwan will eventually become a State that is separate from China. But so far that hasn’t happened.
Taiwan is de facto an independent state. They have their own customs (as in economy), their own military and their own independent government.
No one officially recognizes it as independent because - as it turns out - neither China has any interest in changing the status quo. It is however very much implicitly recognized as independent considering trade deals made with mainland China do not affect trade deals with Taiwan and vice versa.
For all intents and purposes, Taiwan is more of a country than England but you’ll find hardly anyone argue that England does not have countryhood.
Country / state / nation. These words have meaning. England is both a country and a nation but not an independent state. Taiwan meets the definition of a country in that it is defined territory, but it is not a nation. It is not an independent state, as it claims to be the government of China, not the government of Taiwan. It makes trade agreements as the government of China. And the reason other countries play along with this is because the US and UK decided that they would make Taiwan into a comprador proxy and invested tons of money into it, while they embargoed the shit out of China and no one was allowed to trade with both China and the USA. The evidence you are using for Taiwan being independent is actually evidence that they are dependent entirely on the USA. Without the USA, the KMT would have been stopped in their reign of terror long before 40 years were up and the province would have been reintegrated into China after 75 years of national trauma.
… which it only does because the PRC threatens with war if Taiwan would drop it.
As it stands now, the majority of the Taiwanese no longer consider themselves Chinese, but the PRC wants to keep that illusion alive for their annexation goals to seem justified. This is solely on the PRC.
Yeah, and most Americans, Canadians, and Australians don’t consider themselves European colonizers, but they don’t get to decide to that, because history matters. The Han Chinese living in the province of Taiwan are Han Chinese. They are of the Chinese nation, and they have never been otherwise. They have never seceded from China.
Are you saying that the people of Taiwan have a right to secession? From where does that right derive? The Confederates didn’t have a right to secession. Texas doesn’t have a right to secession. Quebec doesn’t have a right to secession. In pretty much every context you can think of, a secession would cause a civil war.
But imagine this: a secession with a geopolitical enemy providing massive military support. Do you think that if China came to Canada and built up a military presence in Quebec to protect their secession that this would be a totally valid thing to do and Canada should let them? Do you think the Chinese navy is allowed to encircle Hawaii and help them secede from the US and that if the US tried to stop them that would be beligerence?
No. Of course you don’t think those things. You only see the narrative of Taiwan from the West. You don’t see the military reality of 70 years of US military intervention and support for fascist dictatorship. You don’t think through the implications of what 40 years (3+ generations) of violent mass murdering fascist political persecution for desiring reunification did to the population of Taiwan (hint, it skewed public opinion pretty dramatically for their own self preservation).
You don’t even realize that Hong Kong and Taiwan were transitioned to liberal democracies at almost the exact same time, and only a few years after South Korea was beginning its transition, coinciding with the clear signs that the USSR was collapsing and the threat of global communism was coming to end. The US and UK administrators of these territories decided that they didn’t need to worry about communism anymore so they allowed the transition to liberal democracy to occur. If it was going to be too dangerous, they would have kept supporting the dictatorship and colonial administration and supported the violent repression of protests, like they had been doing for decades.
The people of Taiwan province do not have a right to secession and the US does not have a right to militarily defend their secession. Taiwan has never stopped being a province of China and just because the world’s most psychotic, beligerent, genocidal military is trying to tug at your heart strings with stories of resistance and democracy, the reality is that you wouldn’t support this configuration in literally any other context.
So? Are you arguing that there is neither America, Canada nor Australia but only British Empire?
Because the PRC said that the moment Taiwan does so, there will be war. Taiwan is forced by the PRC to keep the ‘China’ label.
How is it of relevance how Quebec handles its affairs? Canada is exerting control over Quebec. The PRC never did over Taiwan. Not now, not ten, not 50 years ago. Never.
There was civil war and the PRC tried to conquer Taiwan but failed. It never established control over these parts. So there you go. De facto, Taiwan is not part of the PRC. De facto, Taiwan doesn’t even want to be China anymore. It is only the PRC getting sore over an island they never controlled as they cannot accept Chinese culture beyond their control. But that’s not a problem of the world, but a PRC problem.
Austrians are of German origin. Are you arguing there is no Austria but only Germany? What about the Swiss? Should they be divided by Germany, France and Italy? Belgium?
And on the contrary, are you therefore arguing that the PRC should piss off from the regions they’ve annexed in the past and where they enforce Han culture since? Tibet, Shinjang? All the other parts of the PRC where the Han colonised? Let me guess…
Right and that’s why countries have pledged to defend China…from itself? Is that the argument you are wanting to make? The reason its not recognized by the Un is because China is a power player with veto rights. Its all stupid politics to not upset china
You do understand the history right? The US chose to back the KMT on Taiwan, sort of like if England had decided to back the Confederates if they hold up in Florida. Except the KMT on Taiwan never seceded. In fact, they organized a fascist dictatorship on the island and they imprisoned and killed anyone who wanted to reunify with the mainland, and they also imprisoned and killed anyone who wanted to secede. The US was supporting them throughout the entire 4 decades of the White Terror wherein the government in Taiwan explicitly stated they were not a separate nation.
In fact, a bunch of Chinese people from Taiwan who fled to the US or Japan tried to build secessionary movements in exile and the KMT on Taiwan chased them down with spies and assassins to stop them.
Just because the US carries on the age old tradition of white European empires trying to pull pieces of China way from China doesn’t mean Taiwan isn’t part of China.
I do understand history, thanks. I mean, if you wanted to make the comparison, you got it backwards. And saying Taiwan imprisoned and killed a bunch of people for disagreeing seems to just be part of how China functions then, because mainland Taiwan has done the exact same thing lol.
Given that Taiwan has never existed as a country, your position that the two bodies are part of the same country is aligned with my position
Given that you’re wrong, and that Taiwan is a country, no. Just because its not recognized by the un doesn’t make it not a country lol
The UN does not recognize Taiwan as a souvereign country, because China made that a requirement for them to participate in that institution.
It’s also because Taiwan does not claim to be a sovereign country.