Yup, or a bit younger. I’m 40, so I was 28 when gamergate kicked off this whole online misogynist grifter ecosystem (which fed into and became a component of what we’d call the alt-right a few years later.)
By that point I’d already had my first few bad breakups and rejections and had grown up, and had made some good platonic friendships with women, so I wasn’t vulnerable to it. But if it’d happened when I was like 23 or 24 and I hadn’t had those chances to grow and mature yet? It might’ve been a lot different.
It’s much easier to blame bad luck and personal failings on others. Growth and maturity takes work.
I know we all know what an incel is, but these words are a better descriptor I think If you want folks to come back, and not scare them further down the hole
Depending on how far out he’s gone, be kinder to him. I have had a few friends who went into the manosphere after their breakups. And, some of them came back. During our chats, one of the things that kept coming back was how easy the manosphere makes it to channel their anger.
For someone in an emotionally vulnerable state, it can get hard to figure out when they moved from, “Fuck her, I want to focus on myself” to “its all women’s fault”.
Tbf, couple of them really kept going deeper into that cesspool and now I have no contact with them 😅, so ymmv.
I’m in a weird state with him currently. See I was going in the opposite trajectory, I used to be one of those atheism-is-my-personality skeptics and a “rational” centrist in high school. Around the same time my brother was going down the pipeline I discovered I was trans and reconnecting with my emotions opened my eyes on a lot of subjects.
He didn’t have an explosive reaction but he insisted I postpone HRT until we “know for sure”. I said he’s welcome to help me explore the topic but I was still doing HRT until I’m convinced otherwise. He never got back to me which just tells me he would’ve dragged his feet and put my transition on pause.
Shortly after that incident I moved to another state for unrelated reasons and he has not once called me. After 2 years I visited my hometown for a week around Christmas and he didn’t even stop by to see me.
To be honest I don’t know if he’s even still manosphere MAGA, I know next to nothing about him since we last spoke. I could make an effort to contact him myself but after not even saying hi during Christmas when he knew I was visiting I don’t know if I even care anymore.
I don’t think anyone IV dripping a culture that feeds into a person’s anger is going to going to be happier or feeling a sense of purpose and fulfillment. There’s a difference between just being a gym bro and listening to influencers that make money off of playing into your insecurities.
I question how attached they were to a feminist identity either though if a breakup shook the identity off of them.
I think identity politics is a bit of a separate conversation. Even the term itself is a bit broad and difficult to ascribe to one thing or another. Do I think some people make one thing or another their entire personality? Oh 100%. And it’s something that’s beyond just politics as well.
Like you said though there are plenty of people that are probably nuts, who only hold onto a label to be part of some ‘counter culture’ group or another. People who don’t really have strong moral convictions aside from wanting to have an audience and would leave their current position in a heartbeat if the spotlight was pulled from them.
Of course the manosphere gave him a sense of purpose. That’s what it was designed to do - to prey on men who don’t have enough of a support network, and sell them a false promise to improve their lives in exchange for them spreading hate and propaganda, which in turn attracts more men to the trap. It’s just a mix between an MLM and a cult. Having a sense of purpose and fulfillment doesn’t mean you made the right choice, it just means someone got you to believe you did.
I don’t know what the right choice is, but it’s pretty easy to see what the wrong choice is. If you hate other people simply for something they can’t change, it’s the wrong choice. The manosphere hates women, full stop. That’s unacceptable. The catholic church hates gay people, full stop. That’s also unacceptable. The current pope is making some changes that might redeem it, but for now it’s objectively a bad choice.
What’s the right choice for a group to join? Is there even a right choice? Who knows, but if your group tries to tell you to hate someone for something other than a choice they decided to make, it’s a sign you should leave that group. The only thing you can judge people on are the actions and decisions they specifically made.
part of the definition of a social group is about who it includes and who it exudes, and who it blames for societies faults and issues. and they all think their group isn’t hateful.
…really, bud? The argument you’re going to make is that all groups hate people?
I’m in a baking group with some local people in my neighborhood. We make cookies and cakes to share with one another, and sometimes make things for people in the area who don’t have the time or money to afford a birthday cake or something. Yes, there are people who are included and excluded from our group - namely anyone who wants to join can join, and anyone who doesn’t, doesn’t have to. Sounds real hateful to you, I’m sure. I’m also in a D&D group - we exclude people who we don’t think are a good fit with our group cohesion, but we always do so with respect, leaving things on good terms. Who exactly do we hate?
Now, I am also a part of hateful groups. For example, I hate Nazis because they chose to be hateful scumbags. I also hate billionaires because they chose to hoard wealth at the expense of everyone else’s wellbeing. I would never hate someone for something they can’t control, like their gender or race, though. As I said, the only thing you can judge people on are the actions and decisions they specifically made.
Right, so if you are hate people, it’s justified, but if someone else does it, it’s not. Gotcha. And otherwise you’re morally perfect or something and totally inclusive, except when the people you don’t like join you group, then they must be excluded, but it’s not hateful! it’s just so nice to ask people to leave if they don’t fit your ‘vibe’.
Oh what about pedophiles? do you not hate them? or do you have to include them in your D&D group as long as they fit the ‘vibe’?
Haha, I knew you’d latch onto that. No, I don’t exclude people who I “don’t like,” I tell people who are looking for an experience different from how our group plays the game that they will likely have more fun elsewhere. If they want to give it a shot anyway, they can. But yeah, if they’re expecting a D&D game where it’s all combat all the time, they’ll be pretty bored with our political intrigue game. If they try to force it to be something it’s not, we’ll ask them to leave because of that choices they made, so that the game can continue.
You want to call it hate? That’s fine - it is a form of judgement in the end, after all. But still, it’s based on the choices they decided to make, not something they can’t control. The most important thing about being in a group is being responsive to the wants of the members of the group. It’s called having a normal conversation with someone you’re hanging out with, with all the respect that comes with it. I obviously hate pedophiles if they choose to act upon their urges and ruin the life of a child. If they don’t, then I wouldn’t know about it, so I’d have no ability to judge them one way or another.
Could be worse, my older brother had his fiance dump him and he went from feminist democrat to manosphere MAGA.
So after he lost he committed to losing? What would you call someone like that?
an Incel. The manosphere lures them in by making all the problems belong to the woman.
They prey on insecurity. I would have been easy prey for those assholes if I was just a bit dumber.
Yeah, same. i’d have gone down the pipeline shouldn’t have I watched contra points video on incels
We all make mistakes.
Yup, or a bit younger. I’m 40, so I was 28 when gamergate kicked off this whole online misogynist grifter ecosystem (which fed into and became a component of what we’d call the alt-right a few years later.)
By that point I’d already had my first few bad breakups and rejections and had grown up, and had made some good platonic friendships with women, so I wasn’t vulnerable to it. But if it’d happened when I was like 23 or 24 and I hadn’t had those chances to grow and mature yet? It might’ve been a lot different.
It’s much easier to blame bad luck and personal failings on others. Growth and maturity takes work.
My brother is pretty dumb but very persuasive so he can pass as an “intellectual”. His gateway drug to the manosphere was Jordan Peterson.
vulnerable, insecure
I know we all know what an incel is, but these words are a better descriptor I think If you want folks to come back, and not scare them further down the hole
Depending on how far out he’s gone, be kinder to him. I have had a few friends who went into the manosphere after their breakups. And, some of them came back. During our chats, one of the things that kept coming back was how easy the manosphere makes it to channel their anger.
For someone in an emotionally vulnerable state, it can get hard to figure out when they moved from, “Fuck her, I want to focus on myself” to “its all women’s fault”.
Tbf, couple of them really kept going deeper into that cesspool and now I have no contact with them 😅, so ymmv.
It’s true, the manosphere can look quite tantalizing when you’ve got no support network.
I’m in a weird state with him currently. See I was going in the opposite trajectory, I used to be one of those atheism-is-my-personality skeptics and a “rational” centrist in high school. Around the same time my brother was going down the pipeline I discovered I was trans and reconnecting with my emotions opened my eyes on a lot of subjects.
He didn’t have an explosive reaction but he insisted I postpone HRT until we “know for sure”. I said he’s welcome to help me explore the topic but I was still doing HRT until I’m convinced otherwise. He never got back to me which just tells me he would’ve dragged his feet and put my transition on pause.
Shortly after that incident I moved to another state for unrelated reasons and he has not once called me. After 2 years I visited my hometown for a week around Christmas and he didn’t even stop by to see me.
To be honest I don’t know if he’s even still manosphere MAGA, I know next to nothing about him since we last spoke. I could make an effort to contact him myself but after not even saying hi during Christmas when he knew I was visiting I don’t know if I even care anymore.
Jesus, he really wanted to prove the Joker right I guess
one bad day?
My condolences.
worse for who, you?
what if he is happier that way? perhaps the manosphere gave him a sense of purpose and fulfillment that was seriously lacking as a feminist democrat?
I don’t think anyone IV dripping a culture that feeds into a person’s anger is going to going to be happier or feeling a sense of purpose and fulfillment. There’s a difference between just being a gym bro and listening to influencers that make money off of playing into your insecurities.
I question how attached they were to a feminist identity either though if a breakup shook the identity off of them.
Cool, i think ID politics is all bullshit and a crutch for mentally unwell people, no matter it’s flavor.
I’ve known plenty of hardcore leftists who became hardcore conservatives, it’s almost as if it wasn’t about the politics but them being a nutjob.
I think identity politics is a bit of a separate conversation. Even the term itself is a bit broad and difficult to ascribe to one thing or another. Do I think some people make one thing or another their entire personality? Oh 100%. And it’s something that’s beyond just politics as well.
Like you said though there are plenty of people that are probably nuts, who only hold onto a label to be part of some ‘counter culture’ group or another. People who don’t really have strong moral convictions aside from wanting to have an audience and would leave their current position in a heartbeat if the spotlight was pulled from them.
Of course the manosphere gave him a sense of purpose. That’s what it was designed to do - to prey on men who don’t have enough of a support network, and sell them a false promise to improve their lives in exchange for them spreading hate and propaganda, which in turn attracts more men to the trap. It’s just a mix between an MLM and a cult. Having a sense of purpose and fulfillment doesn’t mean you made the right choice, it just means someone got you to believe you did.
and you personally, know what the right choices are for other people?
would you feel the same way if they joined the Catholic church? or is that just a cult of false promise too?
I don’t know what the right choice is, but it’s pretty easy to see what the wrong choice is. If you hate other people simply for something they can’t change, it’s the wrong choice. The manosphere hates women, full stop. That’s unacceptable. The catholic church hates gay people, full stop. That’s also unacceptable. The current pope is making some changes that might redeem it, but for now it’s objectively a bad choice.
What’s the right choice for a group to join? Is there even a right choice? Who knows, but if your group tries to tell you to hate someone for something other than a choice they decided to make, it’s a sign you should leave that group. The only thing you can judge people on are the actions and decisions they specifically made.
sorry, where is this group that hates nobody?
part of the definition of a social group is about who it includes and who it exudes, and who it blames for societies faults and issues. and they all think their group isn’t hateful.
…really, bud? The argument you’re going to make is that all groups hate people?
I’m in a baking group with some local people in my neighborhood. We make cookies and cakes to share with one another, and sometimes make things for people in the area who don’t have the time or money to afford a birthday cake or something. Yes, there are people who are included and excluded from our group - namely anyone who wants to join can join, and anyone who doesn’t, doesn’t have to. Sounds real hateful to you, I’m sure. I’m also in a D&D group - we exclude people who we don’t think are a good fit with our group cohesion, but we always do so with respect, leaving things on good terms. Who exactly do we hate?
Now, I am also a part of hateful groups. For example, I hate Nazis because they chose to be hateful scumbags. I also hate billionaires because they chose to hoard wealth at the expense of everyone else’s wellbeing. I would never hate someone for something they can’t control, like their gender or race, though. As I said, the only thing you can judge people on are the actions and decisions they specifically made.
Right, so if you are hate people, it’s justified, but if someone else does it, it’s not. Gotcha. And otherwise you’re morally perfect or something and totally inclusive, except when the people you don’t like join you group, then they must be excluded, but it’s not hateful! it’s just so nice to ask people to leave if they don’t fit your ‘vibe’.
Oh what about pedophiles? do you not hate them? or do you have to include them in your D&D group as long as they fit the ‘vibe’?
Haha, I knew you’d latch onto that. No, I don’t exclude people who I “don’t like,” I tell people who are looking for an experience different from how our group plays the game that they will likely have more fun elsewhere. If they want to give it a shot anyway, they can. But yeah, if they’re expecting a D&D game where it’s all combat all the time, they’ll be pretty bored with our political intrigue game. If they try to force it to be something it’s not, we’ll ask them to leave because of that choices they made, so that the game can continue.
You want to call it hate? That’s fine - it is a form of judgement in the end, after all. But still, it’s based on the choices they decided to make, not something they can’t control. The most important thing about being in a group is being responsive to the wants of the members of the group. It’s called having a normal conversation with someone you’re hanging out with, with all the respect that comes with it. I obviously hate pedophiles if they choose to act upon their urges and ruin the life of a child. If they don’t, then I wouldn’t know about it, so I’d have no ability to judge them one way or another.