So, my last post was a complete shit show. I had no idea it would get this much attention. Not necessarily happy that it did.
First off, to the moderation team, please accept this hug from this trans bunny girl right here. Because damn it, do you deserve it. I’m so sorry for what happened, I do kind of feel responsible and I’m worried that by posting this, I’m going to make things worse.
Second, it is astounding the amount of entitlement that so many men feel. In this thread, I’ve seen lots of dudes being offended but what was more striking was: A bunch of guys being told about the rule, AND DOUBLING AND SOMETIMES TRIPLING DOWN!
When I wrote this post, I was thinking of adding a huge: “Please read the rules before commenting, this is a women only space” and I didn’t do it, I didn’t want to overstep the boundaries of the moderation. I would change that, looking back.
You know what kills me about all of this? It’s that, as a transfeminine bun, the typical trans-misogynistic shit being thrown my way is that I’m just a guy disguising myself as a woman to invade “real women” spaces, to which of course, the answer always is: Guys don’t need to put in this much effort to invade women spaces, they just walk in like they own the place and it’s enough.
This post was yet another perfect demonstration of that. And men can’t understand, they just can’t, because they don’t go through it, they don’t know what it’s like, they never even have to think about it. Women are being excluded passively all over the internet, but the second there is a women only thing, we have guys constantly trying to brigade it and to destroy it because taking all the space already isn’t enough.
A woman can’t express herself online without being bombarded with reply guys telling her that she’s wrong, that she’s exaggerating, and don’t forget the usual dudes insisting that they’re part of the good ones. And god forbid if you’re expressing your frustration in a way that might be a bit too generalizing or angry, because of course “#NotAllMen”, a guy will say proving exactly that yes, it is all men. It’s not hating an entire group, it’s not being misandrist, it’s just drowning in misogyny and being rightfully pissed off about it, but we can’t even have that.
We’re never allowed to be ourselves, we’re never allowed to be vulnerable as women, we’re never allowed to vent or be upset at the shit that we have to endure from men all the time, we just have to take it. All because the average dude’s ego is both so enormous and so fragile that he can’t accept that it’s not about him, or even begin to understand that he might be the problem here when he’s been repeatedly told that this is not a space for him.
It’s incredibly disheartening. Because when it works, I love this community, it’s a safe haven on the internet. But the second we dare to talk about more than: “I love being a girl!” and go into something along the lines of: “Misogyny is crushing to deal with”, things spiral out of control and we have to deal with yet another stunning example of men barging in, seemingly desperate to prove the point.
In the beginning I said this:
I’m worried that by posting this, I’m going to make things worse.
You see this? This is exactly what I’m talking about.
I didn’t write it to prove a point, I wrote it because I’m genuinely worried about this. Because I have to actively be careful about what I do, what I say, what I wear, what I show, as to not attract the ire of misogyny. All the time. It’s always in the back of my mind, it’s a never ending anxiety. It’s something that men, even the most well meaning ones, can’t and will never be able to understand. I just wish they’d be able to accept it and to believe us.
EDIT:
IT HAPPENED HERE AS WELL! We had a guy come in, knowing full well he was breaking the rule, but he wanted to share his “personal experience”, his opinion. In other words, fucking mansplain to us why this keeps happening. He couldn’t help himself, he just had to share his unsolicited opinion because he is just that important as a man. I have people asking me all the time why I only hang out with trans people and women, and it’s simple: They respect my fucking boundaries!
I’m so sorry for what happened …
Honey, please never take the blame for the actions of others. The others either knew the rules or were quickly apprised of them. It was their choice, not yours, to comment where they knew they were not welcome. The blame falls on them, not on you.
This acidic sexagenarian appreciates your posts and your insights. Please don’t be chased off by the assholes.
as a transfeminine bun, the typical trans-misogynistic shit being thrown my way is that I’m just a guy disguising myself as a woman to invade “real women” spaces
FWIW this acidic sexagenarian appreciates your participation here and welcomes you with open arms; you’ve got it worse than cis women do and deserve a safe, welcoming space, which I hope this group is for you.
We’re never allowed to be ourselves, we’re never allowed to be vulnerable as women …
I’m done being vulnerable (there’s not enough time left for me to be so), so this acidic sexagenarian will go full berserk bulldog on your behalf so you can be as vulnerable as you like. My knives (both metaphorical and literal) are for you.
It’s something that men, even the most well meaning ones, can’t and will never be able to understand.
Some genuinely do. And the reason you never hear from them is because they, you know stay out of a women-only space. So the tragedy is you only get the open misogynists, the closet misogynists, and the utterly fucking clueless in our group. (But that post you linked to? Not a single one there fell into the last group.)
My SO gets it. He’s on Lemmy too. Quite an active participant. And you will never see him in this space because he understands what “women only” means. And after I go off on a rampage in a post like the one you linked to, he’s there to listen patiently as I gesticulate wildly and rant angrily about fucking idiot men. Without commenting.
Unfortunately, as I said, this means we only ever see the whiny pricks and sociopathic assholes.
I just want to add that there is currently a problem with our mod tools since we moved everything over after the hack. As a result, the mods are unable to moderate as efficiently as they could before.
Because they’re normally so on top of things, that thread was a good example of what things look like when they can’t moderate properly.
We’re hoping to get it fixed soon!
The single downvote on this comment is sending me hahahahaha
Haha yep
It bothers me so much that they just can’t keep themselves out of women-only spaces. I get major imposter syndrome (despite being on HRT, and being 99% out), and then actual men break the rule. It makes me feel… I’m not sure. It’s upsetting, that’s for sure.
I’d once again like to acknowledge, and appologise for the fact, that I made a… not-so-great comment, which caused a fair amount of trouble.
There is nothing to apologise for they shouldn’t have been in the thread to read the comment in the first place. They come here and attack us just for existing it’s utterly wrong
I agree that what they did was wrong. However, I still shouldn’t have made such a comment. It was bigoted, to say the least.
- You can let yourself feel angry or frustrated abiut this, because men are invading a space made for you. This is a space for women, so it’s your space.
B) Unless you were specifically trying to start a fight, you don’t need to apologise for adding a reply.
- I don’t think I quite feel angry (except on y’all’s behalf), but more distressed. It makes me worry that I’m invading women’s spaces. It still feels hard to believe I’m a woman, despite saying “I’m a man” feeling like a blatant lie.
- I wasn’t trying to start a fight, but I did say things that I really shouldn’t’ve; hence my apology.
Yes, what Velma said … you belong here. And you’re so obviously a woman, ffs.
Just the worrying about belonging here is enough for me to know they’re a woman haha
“But what if I’m not a woman? I wanna be a pretty woman, but if I’m not really a woman then I can’t, and that makes me sad.”
—Me sometimes
Women are women even, and maybe especially, when we’re not pretty 💕
You’re valid even when you’re not all dolled up!
True, though I’d say all women are pretty; if not on the outside, then on the inside <3 (I might be a bit biased about that, though, since I do like women).
I actually really enjoy androgynous fashion too, and I don’t know if that “counts as” pretty. I do enjoy a cute skirt or dress, though :3
Thanks :3
But also like genuinely what is the obvious part? (It’s hard to see one’s self objectively).
Just your whole way of writing … as someone reading your replies it’s blindingly obvious to me
It’s the hearts and cat-faces, isn’t it? lol
Nope.
How many hearts and cat faces do you see on my replies?
No, it’s how you’re expressing yourself.
You belong here <3
Thanks :3
Meh. I’ve said similar things (even here) when angry. A little talking to by @LadyButterfly@[email protected] and I sheepishly delete it and it’s all good.
Can’t be mad at you for doing the same.
It helps to know I’m not the only one to’ve made such mistakes.
This is absolutely positively NOT your fault and you have absolutely nothing to apologise for. Those types attack us whenever they feel like it…we’re women and have lots of trans members, plus we have some LGB AND non white people (oh the horrors!!) So they hate us.
We had a glitch on piefed so couldn’t ban people otherwise it would have been sorted sooner. I’m just sorry you had to deal with all that shit
I agree totally, it’s so exhausting to constantly deal with
You know what kills me about all of this? It’s that, as a transfeminine bun, the typical trans-misogynistic shit being thrown my way is that I’m just a guy disguising myself as a woman to invade “real women” spaces, to which of course, the answer always is: Guys don’t need to put in this much effort to invade women spaces, they just walk in like they own the place and it’s enough.
preach girl preach 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
And god forbid if you’re expressing your frustration in a way that might be a bit too generalizing or angry, because of course “#NotAllMen”, a guy will say proving exactly that yes, it is all men. It’s not hating an entire group, it’s not being misandrist, it’s just drowning in misogyny and being rightfully pissed off about it, but we can’t even have that.
it’s so frustrating - someone will post some obviously misogynistic shit and you’ll take the time to explain why it’s misogynistic and then a bunch of fragile guys will instantly start downvoting (not @[email protected] tho, he’s single handedly the one #NotAllMen <3) and explaining how they’re just misunderstood and are actually one of the good ones - my guys just take the L
how come most can understand when we say ACAB replying with #NotAllCops isn’t defensible - yet those same people will unironically defend #NotAllMen as if systemic critique is specifically about them - to quote another ally: “either get with it, or get out of the fucking way”
on the broader point of the “angry woman” trope - the world we live in makes it impossible to escape this - so as The Feminist Killjoy Handbook by Sara Ahmed teaches us (a highly recommended read btw - again brought up to me by another ally (and to the men lurkers in here - this is how you help women not by defending yourself as “one of the good ones”) - actions speak much louder than words)
anyways as I was saying: Sara teaches us that instead of running away from the trope of the angry “killjoy” we should embrace her - as she comes from a long line of feminists that have fought so hard to get us to where we are today and men have attemped to dismiss all of them by using that same trope - so use that righteous anger to keep up the fight and to always remember that you’re not alone, never have and never will be 🫶🏼
how come most can understand when we say ACAB replying with #NotAllCops isn’t defensible - yet those same people will unironically defend #NotAllMen as if systemic critique is specifically about them
I feel like part of the issue is that saying “kill all men” doesn’t sound like a critique of the system.
Here’s an example:
He didn’t think that it was about the system that normalizes misogyny and instead took it as an insult directly. He is totally in the wrong here, but it’s not hard to see why he took that view.
I personally really dislike “ACAB” and because it is often used to just turn a complicated topic into a bunch of infighting instead of actual conversation where things can be learned.
This comic perfectly explains both how something controversial like “defund the police” can just cause confusion and discord to someone unfamiliar when the second panel shows the often undiscussed meaning behind it which most will agree with
Acab is literally true. There are no good cops.
There are good men, and exactly none of them are getting mad at righteous expressions of anti-patriarchal rage in a women’s only space.
Acab is literally true. There are no good cops.
I agree, my point is that the average uninformed person doesn’t understand that concept (see 1st panel of comic)
I’m becoming more and more firm on this, personally. Yes all men. Yes all cops. I’m tired and quite frankly done with cuddling people’s feelings. We’re talking about societal structures, systems and so on. People who want to understand will, people who don’t want won’t. Please note that I might be biased because men have been throwing a ton of shit at me lately, so I’m quite pissed off but holy shit, I’m tired of having to explain myself.
It’s really understandable to feel this way, especially after your last post and this post. It’s easy for it to feel like all of them when even the proclaimed good ones don’t treat us well either. Promise there’s good men though :)
I do hope you treat yourself a little extra kind tonight. Maybe an extra sweet or a favorite tea or whatever your pick is haha
I know there are good men out there… It’s frustrating to me that the “Not all men” discussion keeps being brought up even though focusing on the “good ones” is entirely missing the point of the argument in the first place. We’re not talking about individuals, here. We always end up having to cuddle up men’s feelings, even in women only spaces, I’m so exhausted…
Anyway.
I’d say this: Trans men are amazing and they constantly rekindle my love for me. <3
Eh would it help to view it as coddling my feelings as a woman married to a man and who has a son? That’s where I’m coming from when I say it and I feel terrible if I in any way made it seem like I was trying to “not all men” at you. Sorry to be dismissive, even if accidentally.
The Feminist Killjoy Handbook by Sara Ahmed
My guiding light <3 Hahaha
I disagree, Rimu is fragile, defensive and frequently goes on banning sprees against anyone who questions them. They might not be a misogynist, but it doesn’t make them a good person.
ah I dont know them that well then - I’ve just seen them hate tankies and have a decent stance on women’s issues - I’ll keep my eyes peeled - thanks!
No problem. I should have said I agree so much with the rest of what you said instead of jumping on that one thing. It’s just my opinion from screenshots I’ve seen and personal issues with how piefed is run, so obviously you’re free to make up your own mind.
Still, allies are allies, even if they’ve got problems. I’ll keep an eye out as well, since I didn’t know Rimu had taken a stance on women’s issues.
Yeah, the constant amount of guys who flounce in makes me not want to comment or post much. I get it a bit, if you didn’t read the community. But to double down instead of just a oops sorry and then muting or blocking the community if you don’t want to do it again accidentally?
But they don’t have to read the rules because they saw it on the all feed you know? And they don’t have to listen when they are explicitly being told about rules because they are very special and if people don’t see their idiotic takes society will collapse.
You know what kills me about all of this? It’s that, as a transfeminine bun, the typical trans-misogynistic shit being thrown my way is that I’m just a guy disguising myself as a woman to invade “real women” spaces, to which of course, the answer always is: Guys don’t need to put in this much effort to invade women spaces, they just walk in like they own the place and it’s enough.
This is one of the things I hate from most of men (with the usual exceptions). They can’t understand the concept of someone feeling different from what they’re supposed to according to the genitalia they got at birth. And even worse, as you say, is that they will feel entitled to every space but will have a problem if you try to enter (with a just reason) the same space they are invading.
The reason for this is the entitlement. They own the place (or so they think), so why can’t they enter? And most importantly, why can YOU enter while they can’t? I think the transphobia you suffer is motivated by this. They are pissed because they are excluded from a place where you can enter and they don’t like it because this society never trained them to get a no for an answer.
Your post is most welcome here and I hope you continue posting. I want to hear your voice and every single person who wants to be here. I want to hear you, celebrate you, maybe debate you in a friendly way, and support you here.
I’ve been on the broader internet for a long time. I’ve seen a lot of this kind of behavior. It’s a real problem on Lemmy, more than some other online spaces. More than most of the men who participate here want to admit.
They’ll celebrate how Lemmy is so much more progressive than Reddit, then the mods turn around and allow men to muse about 14 year olds and their “consenting nature”. They’ll yell at you to be more leftist, then claim there’s no gender war, only class war. They get very, very offended to hear any voice that doesn’t sound like theirs. It’s almost a relief to run into a conservative because at least they’re upfront about their desire to subjugate me.
I hope none of us stop posting and not just in womensstuff either. We can shape these spaces to include us. We can be stubborn and take our space, assholes be damned. We deserve this place. You deserve a voice here 💕
It’s because Lemmy / Piefed into the Free and Open Source Software world. The FOSS world has a massive culture problem that it just refuses to see.
There’s actually a really easy fix to this brigading problem, but the jackasses who make Lemmy won’t implement it.
Member-only postings. Just a little drop-down that reads:
- only members may read
- only members may reply
- public post
With a default set by the group owner and perhaps the ability to turn off public posts entirely for a group. But they don’t implement this. They instead make sure that every emoji known to humanity can be accessed with colon-codes.
Because that has priority over community health.
But men own the internet and they should be allowed to participate wherever they want, otherwise we’re misandrists /s
They’ll refuse to be shown the culture problem as well. The backlash I’ve received is incredibly aggressive and persistent.
Such a shame.
It’s filled with far-right dipshits who keep talking about not making it political, when they’re very existence in our spaces is poisoning our projects and are value. We need more politics, more education, more inclusivity. The “no politics” is just a doormat that welcome Nazis to lockdown the space with their own politics that they just label “common sense”.
Love this comment and your contributions to this community
And I love yours!! You’re such a ray of positivity, I love all of your posts and you’re a great mod. You really add a balance to this place.
Just really wanted to thank you for these beautifully encouraging words with my first comment over here <3
Welcome Eskarina!! I’m so happy to see your username and I’ll keep an eye out for you going forward :)
as a nonbinary person afab, i wrote one comment here and then felt guilty. thanks for the clarity, i cant believe some peoples entitlement!
You are more then welcome here! 🫶
Hey mate! Mod here. Non binary, trans men etc are 100% welcome here ❤️
Oh thank you, for saying that. I sometimes want to reply on comments here, to be an another voice against all the misogyny and transfobia, but as an masculine presenting enby I feel like I am invading even doing just that. I have lived half of my life as a woman, and the other half as a man, so I am totally trans, but also just an enby, that manages to fit in a gender role enough to pass - so permanently in a weird position, where I do not belong anywhere, yet have experienced all sides. But I just hate how much misogyny lemmy is filled with! Makes me mad!
OP I’m so sorry you had to become part of these hateful prick being asshats, it definitely was not your fault in any way. They are just terrible people.
You’re welcome, and if here is somewhere that fits you, we’d love to have you
Eyyyy welcome fellow nb.
Thank you for wording it so well – brigading is exactly what it feels like. I can’t believe how many self-righteous masc commenters are on this c/. It’s gross – and it’s not just /womensstuff. I see it all the time with neighbours, randos in public etc…
Ugh, the #NotAllMen bothers me so much in a women’s space too.
Like. Dude. We know! We all know that it’s not all men. Nobody’s trying to say that it is all men.
But it’s some of them. So we hold our purses a little tighter and walk faster towards the car in the parking lot at night. So we avoid being out alone when it’s dark. So we carry our self defense methods, and we stay wary.
Not because it’s all men, but because it’s always men.
I think it’s important to draw a hard line on this question and say that, no, it is all men.
Every time a dude says #NotAllMen, they’re just proving the point. It’s like “ACAB”. Yes, all cops.
It’s not about the individuals, it’s about the institutions and systems that protects and enables them. It’s about the fact that all men are raised and educated to be like that, in a world that is constantly pushing and reinforcing them to be like that. It’s not about the fact that all men are murderous, rapists, misogynists. It’s that they have the potential to be because society treats them favorably for it. And it’s about the fact that to any random women out there, there’s no telling the difference between if it’s the apple that’s rotten or the tree, nor does it matter if at the end of the day, eating an apple is like playing russian roulette.
Rules have exceptions, they don’t change the rule. It’s an uncomfortable reality, but a reality nonetheless.
I don’t know if ACAB is an appropriate comparison, as one’s career is chosen whereas one’s gender is not. So it seems unfair to say “all means all” over something that people have little or no control over.
I’ll amend my opinion when quotes like “Every woman knows another woman who has been raped, but no man knows a rapist” stop being relevant.
I hate that this is true. One of my defining moments in becoming a feminist was when a guy literally climbed on top of me at a party, trying to make out while I yelled at him to stop. Men who were right there didn’t believe anything wrong was happening, except when I started beating the crap out of him - then I was the crazy one.
If they can’t see what’s happening right in front of them, how can I be surprised they don’t believe rape victims?
While I agree with the sentiment, my main pushback is that it’s important not to assume all of the individuals are at fault (even if they do benefit from the system) when interacting with them.
There are some incredible men out there, fighting for the rights and equality of women, and I commend them for it. Others are complete asshats who don’t deserve the time of day, and barely deserve the air they breathe.
To me it’s a matter of… Yeah, guys. We know it’s not literally all men, but somehow it’s always a man.
until #notallmen becomes a flag planted in the sand used to say “no. I refuse to be part of this system” it’s just a derailing tactic.
All that is true. However, I like that this is the one place where I’ll be backed up if I tell a dude to get the hell out.
It’s the one place where I know I’ll have people protect me as well. It’s why it matters so much to me.
Then I’ve got your back, too.
I love seeing you pop up in discussions outside of womensstuff. Know that I’ve always got your back lol
Same here.
Well one good thing (debateably I suppose lol) happened because of it, I found out about this community. Hi ladies <3
You’re not the first one to reply to this thread saying this. It was so worth it, then. <3
I can say the same, tbh. I think I found it on All when I already saw the latest posts on my subscribed. Thank you for the post, we will get through it all together <3
Hey you! Happy to have you join us 💕
