As another trans woman it has been so hard for me to connect with other trans women because of this.
I’m very critical of men and the way they behave in our society, and my cis girl friends and gay male friends almost always agree.
Now every time I bring this up to trans friends they jump to defend men, girl why are you defending men when they’re literally the ones killing trans women and cis women at exponential rates and you’re telling me that men don’t have a problem??
I genuinely don’t understand that need they have to defend men…
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I obviously can’t speak definitively for any individual besides myself. However, I think I can make a pretty solid guess as to why that is.
Trans women, especially those who transition later in life, have prior experience with being seen as men by society. And they probably found life to be difficult when living as a man, in many cases. So, I think that because of that, they can be more likely to empathize with men.
Personally, I try to empathize with every person, regardless of gender. I think that the people who deserve scorn still end up looking bad when you give them that benefit.
Hating on people for their gender is bigotry, whatever gender that is. People aren’t bad just because they’re men, but berceuse of what they do. Most men aren’t bad people.
Isn’t that the same logic as the all lives matter bullshit though?
No one is born a cop.
I don’t think so, because it is inversed. “Black lives matter” focuses on a very real societal problem, but it does not actually imply that other lives do not matter. It is not discrimination, it just focuses on black lives. So people arguing against this are not arguing against discrimination, they are effectively arguing against the value of black lives, even if they try to pretend they are not.
However in the reverse, something like “men are terrible” is discriminatory. Someone arguing against this is not actually arguing against women or anyone else, they are just arguing against the discrimination.
I also think in this case discrimination is not actually what is meant, but language matters, as many other comments in this thread have already said.
And when people say stuff like “I hate white people” or “white people are the worst” ? Do you think that’s justified? I sure do. It’s about being able to vent about the dominant culture and the people who support it. If someone were to say “not all white people” it’d indicate to me that they’re not on the same page and maybe not someone to let my guard down around.
I tend to believe that it is possible to vent without resorting to racism. Especially when things like culture and ethnicity are used as distractions from the actual problems that make people’s lives worse. It is the exact same kind of distraction as “the job market is bad because Mexicans are stealing all the jobs!” -> then some people start “venting” about the “lazy job stealing Mexicans”.
If you want to vent, vent about the actual problems. Like “capitalism is the worst” or “I hate corrupt politicians”, or whatever.
Similarly with gender, the patriarchy - the oppressive system of power, is the problem, not the actual gender that the people pushing that system tend to have. It is misdirected rage.
Most of the bad things going on in the world are done by bad men, not all men but always a man
there are women CEOs and politicians, so clearly it’s not always a man
This ignores the fact that men hold systemic power over us (as well as over cis women). While individual men aren’t inherently bad people, the power they have at their disposal just by being men (and the violence that power enables) means that to be a “good” man, you have to make an active effort to not uphold that power. Not a lot of men do this (though some do). Therefore, there’s reason to be distrustful of the average man we meet.
Men as a group have systemic privilege and as a member of an oppressed group, “punching up” is a good thing.
But particularly when you’re in a queer context, when you are complaining about men, it’s not simply punching up. You’re also hitting out at your peers, you’re hitting out at the gender diverse men that are also part of your community.
Just adding my two cents in here to say that allies can come in all shapes and sizes, and we need all the allies we can get. Im also not above calling out men for their terrible behavior.
The patriarchy exists for everybody and affects every single person, no matter your gender race sexual orientation etc etc. For men this normally takes the toxic masculinity form, where feelings are discouraged, and caring for yourself is for soft men. If you welcome a cis man into a space where its ok to feel what you feel, therapy for example, theres a better chance that that man will develop empathy for others because someone else had empathy for him.
For the time i was pretending, a common theme amongst men is isolation, echo chambers, and labeling fear. Much the same as it is now. They gravitate towards people who think like them, because for men approaching a group of people or just a single person is threatening. And its a position earned by other people in their gender.
Yes men have started 99.99% of wars. Yes men are directly or indirectly responsible for almost everything bad in our world. But kevin and thomas down the street didnt make those things happen.
Dividing is whats destroying us. Being open and inclusive is the name of the game in my mind. People are just people and they make mistakes. If theyre open to learning or being better to others and the world then im willing to let them learn.
Dont further the culture war for them. Be open to humanity as a whole, not just your favorite parts. And punch nazis!
As much as I very much dislike generalizing behavior to gender or any other broad attribute, I do still share similar sentiments with you. I do not feel comfortable around most men, I do not feel safe around most men, and I generally avoid them.
Throughout my life women have been the most supportive, caring, and relatable to me. They have not been the ones to physically abuse me, yell at me, or hurt me in any other way. I do have friends that are men- they are all gay or fall somewhere under the queer umbrella, but even they have left me unsupported in times when I’ve desperately seeked their support. I do understand that my views and feelings are from my personal trauma, and maybe someday I’ll have enough experiences that change my feelings.
Tbh I’m not a fan of how youve chosen to word this. It comes across as weirdly antagonistic towards other folks here.
I also think that language is important and what’s being left out here is the context behind why other people are shutting you down. Patriarchy fucks with all our lives and the oppression of women as an assigned class to the advantage of men as an assigned class is real and worth discussing. But I think that how we talk about that does matter. And I can see how language could quickly devolve this subject away from the central point of class solidarity and liberation.
Trans women have as varied opinions as any class of people. Studies consistently show that trans people as a whole are strongly left leaning and pro minority rights. Not to say that misogyny doesnt exist in trans communities but it is not uniquely common in trans communities.
How exactly is this antagonistic? I’m only asking because as trans women we suffer from men’s toxic behaviors more than anyone but I still meet a significant amount of trans women who will try to deny that society makes men commit most of the terrible stuff happening in the world.
It does frustrate me, what can I say 🤷🏻♀️ men are literally taking everything away from us I don’t think they need to be defended.
You might wanna lookup the Apex Fallacy, because you’re spreading it all over, intentionally, or not.
I assume you don’t. But many of the people who say things like “all men are terrible” include trans women in their definition of “men.” Also, trans people certainly understand getting scapegoated for your gender or apparent gender for reasons completely beyond your control.
I’m a trans woman. I identify as a woman. I’ve dealt with my share of terrible men. But for the first part of my life I wasn’t out and I did present as male. And when people said, “all men or terrible,” they didn’t know what was in my heart. They could go only by my outward appearance. That “all men” included me. And until you came out, when a woman looked across a crowd and said, “all men or terrible,” she included you as well.
I’d venture to guess your friends, etc have mostly had good experiences with the men in their life, so they hold a different view to you?
And or maybe they don’t agree with the generalisation nowadays.
And or something else.
We defend no one in their hatred - rather, we oppose the (often political and state) actors behind the bigotry that fuels some people. While more non-queer men than women tend to be discriminatory against queers, it is certain ‘politics’ that are pitting these people against us.
Without exposure to those sources, non-queers and queers alike would enjoy a much better environment with much less discrimination.
To the people saying not all men: yes, we know, and you’re not the first to comment it. How about we rephrase it verbosely as “among men, it is common to do a bunch of problematic behaviors”. Now can we get back to the point of the post?
But that is the point of the post. The discussion was “why are some trans women defensive of men?” And you yourself just answered it. For people who had to live a long period of their lives as male, hearing someone say, without nuance, “all men are terrible”? Well you just declared that it doesn’t matter what’s in someone’s heart. Their actions don’t matter. They’re a terrible person simply for their gender. And that means, if you really believe that, for virtually any trans woman, there was a time in their life you would have considered them terrible. They were outwardly presenting as male; their inner heart is irrelevant. They “were men.” Men are bad. Therefore, they were bad.
When you leave no room for nuance and individual character you end up also including trans womens’ pasts in your definition of “terrible men.”
Omg thank you so much, why are people trying to ignore the fact that thousands of years of patriarchal history and toxic masculinity aren’t affecting the way men act nowadays…
Avoid associating with people who defend abusers, they’re showing you how they wish to be treated.
Also avoid accusing individuals of vile acts without evidence or as a part of a hasty generalization of a larger un-unified macro group or gender ideology, otherwise you may find others doing the same to you.
Also good advice.
Trust your gut though when it comes to individuals. If someone’s behaviour repeatedly makes you feel uncomfortable, you will be happier without them in your life.
I think you’re being rude to your gay male friends. It reads like you’re either denying their masculinity or erasing their experience. Why are you asking here the reasons your trans friends (I assume trans women) defend men? Haven’t they told you already? “Men” is very wide, maybe you’re not thinking of the same ones. Maybe your friends remember the experience of being assigned male and bear remnants of sympathy. Maybe some of the human beings they care for are men. I’m not denying plenty of men are scary as fuck. It’s the main reason it took me a while to realize how hot the kind ones can be.
Have you considered fighting the patriarchy? It’s a worthwhile nuance. Lots of good work to be done there.
Let’s be for real, gay men are less misogynistic than straight cis men.
Only straight cis men benefit from the patriarchy that’s why gay men get it, they’ve suffered the backlash.
Now straight men are seeing the world change for equality and they feel threatened to lose their privileges.
Only straight cis men benefit from the patriarchy that’s why gay men get it, they’ve suffered the backlash.
Gay men absolutely benefit from the patriarchy. Gay male couples on average earn substantially more than the average straight couple, while lesbian couples make substantially less than the average straight couple.
Do gay men benefit in all the same ways as straight men? No. But they do benefit.
You know what? I get it. You’re venting. This is a safe a space for trans women and I may be queer but I have no business questioning your experience.
You could word this differently, say the same thing and get zero pushback from your friends or the community imho. Not every day is a good day for wording things carefully though.
i dont know what specific points they defend men on, but i know for me i lived as a man for over 30 years so i have some thoughts and feelings on the pressures and toxic culture men are subject to. its true that there are a lot of shitty men in the world, but it’s also true that many men have been essentially abandoned by society. they aren’t rich, successful, handsome, masculine, or whatever enough so they are essentially treated as worthless. they get no emotional support or connection from anyone, and no one gives a shit about their struggles and problems. as always shitty men coopt these real issues to argue that they should be able to be even more shitty, but men face real serious problems in society that end up shuttling tons of them into the manosphere, making things worse for everyone. i would never defend anyone for being shitty, regardless of gender, but writing off all men on the basis of their gender is wrong, and only serves to reinforce the societal problems driving many of them to be shitty in the first place.
I think it’s obvious I’m not dumping all men in the group. The system that creates those problems for men was created by… Oh other men 😂
I can’t see a way the manosphere can be justified, sorry, I went through some wild shit is a kid and I’m not doing the trash men do.
I think it’s obvious I’m not dumping all men in the group.
Are you making it obvious to the people you’re talking to who get defensive of men?
If you say “men” and are thinking of the majority of men who are toxic or tolerate other’s toxic behaviour, but the person you’re talking to hears “men” and is thinking of their amazing ally dad and brother, then the problem is that you’re essentially speaking different languages.
Yes men created the system but it was a tiny number who did this and lots of men such as myself are just as unhappy with the system more powerful and older men built for everyone. I had no say in it and I’ve been fighting against it all my life.
oh the manosphere is totally unjustified. that shit is fucked and hurts everyone. im just saying theres a reason so many men end up there. acknowledging the nuances of problems doesnt mean they arent problems.
Wow, I didn’t think I’d encountered that from the other transfemmes I know, but from the downvotes here you must be right… That sucks, we gotta do better.
Unfortunately there’s also lots of lefties, women, etc who would also be weirdly defensive of men. OTOH, there’s many men, even cis straight ones, who’d agree if you complained about men.
I wonder if you are just less selective with which trans women you associate with just because of a stronger assumption of shared experiences and shared beliefs and there’s simply not that many around to associate with.
